salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
A change of mind.
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are Altar calls even biblical?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
- Start date
The Bible doesn't say
Interesting. What scripture do you have to back that up?
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
All of the country baptist churches have altars and they are not the supper table.
So your God is no better than the Calvinist God that puts some into hell because he wants to....is that it?
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
I am beginning to see that preaching to the sinner can be a form of counseling. I'm glad i'm not to old to learn.
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And there is no such thing as sola gratia according to you
While you're questioning things....
....let's ask where the idea of passing an offering plate came from?
On the other hand, the need for a brick and mortar building to call a church.
Maybe we should even question stained-glass windows, and the need for the massive pipe organ, and even hymnals?
Then there is the Board of Deacons; who came up with this group? Maybe a bunch of unemployed Pharisees???
Then I'd have to ask where did man get the idea to give names to different congregations. Like where in the Bible do we find the need to call ourselves Baptist. Or Presbyterians? Or Lutherans? Or, even Episcopal? And, what gives with the name Catholic? Where was that name dug up from?
And while you're digging for answers, who decided that we MUST gather every week to have a sermon, sing songs, collect money, and fellowship? I see nothing in the NT telling us to go to church [another man made term - church]?
Yeshua, you may be unto something here. Let's leave no ground untruned. Let's get to the bottom of where these ideas came from Biblically?
I know some of those on the board will have the answers, but at least the questions have been tendered, and there's an opportunity to answer the questions and put them to bed once and for all! :sleeping_2:
....let's ask where the idea of passing an offering plate came from?
On the other hand, the need for a brick and mortar building to call a church.
Maybe we should even question stained-glass windows, and the need for the massive pipe organ, and even hymnals?
Then there is the Board of Deacons; who came up with this group? Maybe a bunch of unemployed Pharisees???
Then I'd have to ask where did man get the idea to give names to different congregations. Like where in the Bible do we find the need to call ourselves Baptist. Or Presbyterians? Or Lutherans? Or, even Episcopal? And, what gives with the name Catholic? Where was that name dug up from?
And while you're digging for answers, who decided that we MUST gather every week to have a sermon, sing songs, collect money, and fellowship? I see nothing in the NT telling us to go to church [another man made term - church]?
Yeshua, you may be unto something here. Let's leave no ground untruned. Let's get to the bottom of where these ideas came from Biblically?
I know some of those on the board will have the answers, but at least the questions have been tendered, and there's an opportunity to answer the questions and put them to bed once and for all! :sleeping_2:
Evidently you haven't visited our country Baptist church. The table in front of the pulpit has these words carved into the ledger:
DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME
We have an "alter" call at the end of services. Perhaps the term "invitation" is a better one. Although neither correctly defines that time during our worship service. Often people come to the pulpit area to pray. Then, return to their places without ever approaching the table or speaking with our pastor. Sometimes only 1 or 2. Sometimes none. Sometimes a great number.
Perhaps "opportunity" is a better word. The wording by our paster of the "call" varies, but the gist of it is -- use this opportunity as the Lord leads you. When people respond, the hymn is continued while people are in prayer and/or talking with our pastor. If no one responds, the closing hymn is ended at the last verse and the service is closed with a prayer.
We do have an "alter" and it is the supper table.
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
In my area the Free Will Baptist, The Baptist, Congregational Methodist, Non Denominational Churches have the long bench type altars in front of the pulpit. The communion table set's over in a corner.
Alter calls may not be in the bible and the need for an actual alter is not needed. But when men preach the gospel, God's word does not return to Him void. Baptism is a public profession of faith. We are taught scripturally to go out and compel them to come into the church. For what? To hear the Word and to get saved.
The real problem with alter calls is that many churches have one at the end of service and they go home. Christians have gotten lazy and skip the step of discipleship. We leave babies on the door step, untrained for the Christian life. The devil wins because all we have done in many cases is make useless Christians not knowing the importance of church or leading others.
The real problem with alter calls is that many churches have one at the end of service and they go home. Christians have gotten lazy and skip the step of discipleship. We leave babies on the door step, untrained for the Christian life. The devil wins because all we have done in many cases is make useless Christians not knowing the importance of church or leading others.
Scripture does not teach us to go out and compel them to come into the church to get saved. Scripture tells us to go out and share the gospel out there. Not only on Sunday morning in the church.
salzer mtn
Well-Known Member
There are some churches that are pretty strict about not talking a sinner up from the altar. They believe this is the time to leave them alone to seek God in prayer. IMO there are a lot of distractions at a public church altar. A lady told me after she had went to the altar, she couldn't get her mind focused on prayer because of the singing and talking. I believe if a person has already come under conviction of sin, that person should seek God in a private place. If this person is truly one of Gods sheep, God will reveal it to him without the aid of man. Being confident of this very thing, he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6
No problem at all!
god has ordained that the message of the cross shall indeed be used By Him to save those whom it was intended to savem the Elect of god shall receive it with Joy and turn to him, as they will have been "prepared' by the HS to be able to respond and be saved!
So the actual work of saving sinners is His from start to finish, He has just allowed us to preach/teach the message!
when we look at the very nature and attributes of god, believe that he has somehow provided for the infants to get to heaven as do NOT hold as some have that hell is paved with bodies of unelect infants, not Limbo full of unbaptized ones!
And God does NOT send sinners to hell, its that he has predestined the saved to go to heaven , rest go where they want too!
No you missed my point. If you are going to say that inviting someone to make a decision is somehow a work that adds to what God has done then in order to be consistent you must also say that of preaching the gospel as well.
My position is that it matters not what kind of response God requires of us. The response God requires of us has no effect on who gets the credit for the salvation of man. He who has the power and authority to give salvation is the only one who gets the credit regardless of how God wants us to respond or deliver the message of the cross.
The Calvinist view of God's sovereignty is not found in scripture. It is an assumption based on man made logic which is in direct contradiction to what we know in scripture.
The fact that the gospel must be preached by man and the fact that man must respond to the gospel in no way interferes with the fact that salvation is of God from start to finish. Even when we give someone an invitation to make a decision.
:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:
A correct view of calvinism is exactly what is found in scripture.
The message preached is the "invitation" if the Holy Spirit is doing the internal work on the sinner.
Tom Butler
New Member
And let's not forget I Corinthians 1:21
It is clear from Scripture that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone. But it is also clear that God does not save independently of means.
God has provided everything we need. He has provided the Bible; he has set aside preachers, missionaries and evangelists, and called them out. He also included all of us in the commission to be His witnesses. God has illuminated minds, opened hearts and understanding (as for Lydia), convicted of sin (as at Pentecost), drawn (John 6:44) and regenerated.
So, the ability to hear, understand and apply the gospel to ourselves and respond to it is given to us. by the Holy Spirit.
This doesn't leave anything for us to brag about in our salvation.
So, how is this related to the question of altar calls? In this way: what we believe about how God brings people to salvation will affect how we carry out witnessing and evangelism. It will affect the language and terminology we use. And it will help resist any kind of emotional manipulation that I've seen too much of in my life.
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