Are Catholics saved or even christians?

[annsni]

The Catechism:1269. How does the Mass re-present Calvary?
The Mass re-presents Calvary by continuing Christ’s sacrifice of himself to his heavenly Father. In the Mass, no less than on Calvary, Jesus really offers his life to his heavenly Father.

No re-sacrifice but re-present. No bloody sacrifice. It was 'one oblation of Himself once offered'. That sacrifice is for all eternity.

But this is off-topic

It re-presents Calvary

by continuing Christ's sacrifice

In the mass....Jesus really offers his life to the Father

Jesus is sacrificed over and over and over and over again. That is fact.

 

[annsni]

LOL...How many teen aged kids don't go through a "rebellious" stage in their lives...get a grip...
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Lots. My two oldest kids didn't (well they're only 17 and 19 so I guess there's still time). I can name dozens of kids that I know that didn't. It's not a given that a teen will rebel.

 

[David Michael Harris]

It's just a matter of being born again I would say. There must be real Christians in the roman catholic system. Just as there are non Christians in protestant fellowships who think they are Christians.

Can there be any in jw's? I would say no, if they don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, how could they?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

It's just a matter of being born again I would say. There must be real Christians in the roman catholic system. Just as there are non Christians in protestant fellowships who think they are Christians.

Can there be any in jw's? I would say no, if they don't believe Jesus is the Son of God, how could they?

But how is it that a JW isn't a Christian because he doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God, but a Catholic can be a Christian in spite of the fact that he denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and believes in salvation by works?

Both are repudiations of the Gospel. Why is one OK and the other not OK?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Lori4dogs, You are obviously a modern day catholic that thinks the catholic church preaches salvation as does every true christian church. I could buy that if
1. We didn't have to confess our sins to a man. Jesus says He is the mediator between God and man.

2. Along with partial forgiveness we must perform pennance to help atone for our sins. The bible says Jesus paid it all!

3.The catholics baptize babies to gain forgiveness for origional sin. If they die before baptizim they go to limbo. A totally made up place.

4. Even if we live a good life and go to church we have to go to purgatory when we die to PAY FOR SINS. If we could pay for sins then why did Jesus go to the cross? Why is he continuously sacrificed if we have to pay anyways?

I've been out a while and a lot has gone on in this thread. I'm reviewing what you said soulman here and I wonder why these issues are your primary issues? 1. We didn't have to confess our sins to a man. doesn't seem like such a big deal its a good idea if you want some accountability plus scripture tells us to confess our sins to one another so that we can be healed. This really is a non issue for me.
2. I think you don't understand pennance. Pennance is not to pay for your sin. Already accomplished. Pennance is to put you back right. In otherwords following this logic. If you steal money from someone else. You may be forgiven for stealing but there still a requirement to return the money stolen and pay it back five times. Look at Zachius. This is closer to pennance than to pay for sin. Doing the things to make right what you've done wrong. 3. Limbo is also a non-issue since its not a Catholic Dogma but a speculation that occured in the middle ages. as far as infant baptism they hold to covenant theology which baptism is a part of the covenant like circumcision was for the Jews. Not a big deal either.
4. Also misrepresented. Purgatory is about Theosis.

I think the real issues are these. Why do the Majority of Catholics not have faith? Why do the Majority of Catholics not Know what their own church teaches? This is what I call practical Christianity. Christianity in Practice. Why the lack of it among the people who claim Catholicity? Surely, Christ is evident in those who believe. That is measuring stick I use. Though I encounter this in Catholics I must say it is the exception rather than the norm. I always ask this. If you receive Christ in the eucharist every sunday then why isn't it observable in your lifestyle? Also, I wonder at the use of the saints as good luck Charms. There is a difference between looking up to an idol who you want to be like. I would like to be like Mary and be totally obedient to Christ. And having a picture of her as a good luck charm. If I have a picture of Mary on my wall I know she's watching over me. The latter is ridiculous. But often occurs in all catholic communities.

My family always mention tares among the wheat. But I don't buy it. I believe in a faithful community the tares would be seriously uncomfortable in that same community. I know before I was saved that I was. But this doesn't seem to be the case in Catholic communities. I was at a catholic bible study and do you know what someone told me?
Their relative died but they were at peace because they knew Mary had taken them to purgatory. I wanted to speak up but since it was a catholic environment and I was the outsider I kept it to myself. First of all even if what Catholics believe about Mary were true (immaculately concieved, Assumed into Heaven) it by no means makes her omnipresent which is a God like quality. Nor does it give her the job of taking the recently deceased to heaven. Or in this case purgatory. This is the nonsense that is not rebutted in the Catholic Church and should be. I think a priest was there but he didn't say anything.
These are my particular issues with the Catholic Church. Practiced Christianity.

 

[annsni]

But how is it that a JW isn't a Christian because he doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God, but a Catholic can be a Christian in spite of the fact that he denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and believes in salvation by works?

Both are repudiations of the Gospel. Why is one OK and the other not OK?

Well, not every Catholic denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and believes in salvation by works. I know many who believe as I do - that works come from faith and not that works do anything other than work in our sanctification.

However, to believe in a different Jesus is a wholly different story.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Well, not every Catholic denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and believes in salvation by works.

But they do. Every time, they receive communion, they're affirming Catholic doctrine.

I know many who believe as I do - that works come from faith and not that works do anything other than work in our sanctification.

So then, they're staying in a false religion they don't even believe in? Isn't that a little hypocritical?

However, to believe in a different Jesus is a wholly different story.

I'm sorry, but I don't see very much difference between believing in a different Jesus and believing in a different Gospel.

 

[Johnv]

Well, not every Catholic denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and believes in salvation by works. I know many who believe as I do - that works come from faith and not that works do anything other than work in our sanctification.

This might also be regional. Catholicism in my area is arguably more progressive than in other parts of the country. Most Catholics, especially the younger generation, solidaly to the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and to the concept of salvation by faith rather than works. Having been to Catholic mass fro time to time, I can also attest to this message being consistently taught from Catholic pulpits here. This part of the country has been predominantly Catholic since the late 1700's.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

But is your purpose to see them saved, or to see them "churched"? The whole "unchurched" phenominon is a very recent one and one I don't like one bit.

I agree. I have never liked this "un-churched" idea. What is our mission then..to Church them? lol

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I agree. I have never liked this "un-churched" idea. What is our mission then..to Church them? lol

Agreed. We've got too many unsaved people in the church as it is.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

But how is it that a JW isn't a Christian because he doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God, but a Catholic can be a Christian in spite of the fact that he denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and believes in salvation by works?

The fact that YOU believe (or better yet TOLD what to believe) Roman Catholics and or Orthodox Christians denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and believes in salvation by works doesn't make it true...If I were you, I'd stay away from Protestant paradigmatically oriented Heresy Hunter, Attack dog sites...they always have their own agenda.

Faith and Good Works are both works of man, and neither saves us. We are saved by God's grace, which is a free gift, and not of ourselves.

To think that we believe otherwise shows you're obviously incapable of logical, analytical thinking and the fact that we keep correcting your misunderstandings shows you are not interested in honesty and truth...

In XC
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[JohnDeereFan]

The fact that YOU believe (or better yet TOLD what to believe) Roman Catholics and or Orthodox Christians denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and believes in salvation by works doesn't make it true

No, but the fact that they do, does.

...If I were you, I'd stay away from Protestant paradigmatically oriented Heresy Hunter, Attack dog sites...they always have their own agenda.

Actually, all four sites I cited were Catholic sites.

To think that we believe otherwise are obviously incapable of logical and analytical thinking and the fact that we keep correcting your misunderstandings shows you are not interested in honesty and truth...

You really should be having this conversation with lori4dogs. After all, she's admitted several times that Catholics have to work for their salvation and yet, you don't seem to have a problem with it when she says it.

 

[David Michael Harris]

But how is it that a JW isn't a Christian because he doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God, but a Catholic can be a Christian in spite of the fact that he denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement and believes in salvation by works?

Both are repudiations of the Gospel. Why is one OK and the other not OK?

I would go along with what Annsni said here. It's a very hard area.

I do not believe that the roman catholics are Christless, but the jw's have to be if they deny the deity of Christ.

Though I will say that if a jw became a Christian ( born again ) he would immediately leave that error of Christianity. There is no way he could he could remain there. The theology of Arius is heretical. He did not abide in the teaching of Christ as John in his letters points out.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I would go along with what Annsni said here. It's a very hard area.

I do not believe that the roman catholics are Christless, but the jw's have to be if they deny the deity of Christ.

Though I will say that if a jw became a Christian ( born again ) he would immediately leave that error of Christianity. There is no way he could he could remain there. The theology of Arius is heretical. He did not abide in the teaching of Christ as John in his letters points out.

Especially when a lot of what we believe about God was decided at Catholic/Orthodox Church Councils. ie... Trinity, Hypostatic Union, etc....

 

[Johnv]

I love this argument:

Interviewer asks Catholic #1: Do you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and believe in salvation by works?
Catholic 1 says: No, I believe in the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and believe in salvation by faith.

Interviewer asks Catholic #2: Do you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and believe in salvation by works?
Catholic 2 says: No, I believe in the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and believe in salvation by faith.

Interviewer asks Catholic #3: Do you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and believe in salvation by works?
Catholic 3 says: No, I believe in the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and believe in salvation by faith.

Interviewer asks Catholic #4: Do you deny the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and believe in salvation by works?
Catholic 4 says: No, I believe in the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, and believe in salvation by faith.

So the interviewer says, "See? They're all being dishonest about what they really believe."

 

[David Michael Harris]

Whatever I believe I always infer from my Bible or my conversion, whatever I read I always confirm from my Bible.

God is at work in the world whether we like it or not.

He saves from all sorts of backgrounds. Once saved though there is a coming out. Must be horrible to find your self in a so called Christian community and find that its way off track from God.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I would go along with what Annsni said here. It's a very hard area.

I do not believe that the roman catholics are Christless, but the jw's have to be if they deny the deity of Christ.

Though I will say that if a jw became a Christian ( born again ) he would immediately leave that error of Christianity. There is no way he could he could remain there. The theology of Arius is heretical. He did not abide in the teaching of Christ as John in his letters points out.

I don't understand the double standard.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Especially when a lot of what we believe about God was decided at Catholic/Orthodox Church Councils. ie... Trinity, Hypostatic Union, etc....

Yeah, that's a very common misconception.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Actually, all four sites I cited were Catholic sites.

It's been over 3 years since I've read anything Roman Catholic...I'm Orthodox.

And the fact that you will not acknowledge that Purgatory and the works Catholics perform to contribute to their salvation shows that you're not really interested in the Gospel.

The Orthodox Church doesn't agree with the dogma put forth by the Roman Catholic Church in regard to Purgatory...in regard to slavation the Orthodox view is a s follows:

Salvation demands faith in Jesus Christ. People cannot save themselves by their own good works. Salvation is "faith working through love." It is an ongoing, life-long process. Salvation is past tense in that, through the death and Resurrection of Christ, we have been saved. It is present tense, for we are being saved by our active participation through faith in our union with Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is also future, for we must yet be saved at His glorious Second Coming.​

Source: The Orthodox Church

But, in my time in Roman Catholic RCIA classes 3 or so years ago, I don't remember them saying that Catholics are saved by works nor do I ever remember reading such...so I'm not sure where you are getting your information from or you are just misunderstanding the terminology...I don't know.

In XC
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[Thinkingstuff]

Yeah, that's a very common misconception.

How so? I've studied history pretty intently and this is the truth not a misconception. What is you're revised view of history? Do you follow Carrol?