• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Are Catholics saved or even christians?

Status
Not open for further replies.

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
so let me get this straight...I'm 38 years old...I was raised a baptist...the ONLY true baptist mind you, a Independent Fundamental Baptist...saved during Sunday school around 8 years-old...

I've been an Orthodox Christian for 2 years now...

SO, you're saying that for 36 years I was NEVER saved in the first place?

YOU are HILARIOUS!!!! H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S!!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So...Once Saved ALWAYS Saved, is conditional only IF I remain a Baptist? Or an Evangelical? Regardless IF I continue to abide in Christ...?????

Wow...look at ALL the lost souls before the Reformation and to think that God had His hands tied before a little 'ol baptist reformer came along and finally, after over 1,500 years, figured it ALL out...:applause:

In XC
-
Why would it be hilarious? And why would you be so quick to mock? It appears that you are in a trail of error and rejection of the truth.
I know of the testimony of a girl, who is quite close to me.
She was "saved" at the age of 8 also. She got saved in Sunday School at an IFB church. Everything went well until Junior High School, when she started to rebel. When she was 15 she was approached by her pastor, who had quite a bit of discernment, and asked her right up front: "you aren't saved are you?" No, she wasn't. The "profession" she had made when she was 8 she did for her Sunday School teacher, not for the Lord. She wasn't saved. It was a profession of salvation, not a possession of Christ.

She prayed again, asking Christ to come into her heart as her Saviour. But her life didn't show it. The same rebellious attitude was present in her life. Nothing had changed. What again had happened was that she had "prayed and asked Jesus into her heart," because the pastor asked her to, to get him off her back, so to speak. Nothing changed in her life.

One year later, she went to a Bible Camp. The speaker at the camp was good with young people and was a powerful speaker. He preached the Word. One night she felt as if she was the only one in the room and every word he spoke was directed right at her. This was the conviction of the Holy Spirit working in her heart. At the end of the message, tears rolling down her cheeks, she literally ran to the wife of a pastor that she knew well, who led her to the Lord, and she has been living for the Lord ever since.

Your profession at 8 doesn't mean you were saved. Many people profess Christ and aren't saved. If the Holy Spirit wasn't present there, it was meaningless.
The Bible says: "examine yourselves and see whether you are in the faith."
It is good advice.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
For starts, I explain that the key to the Good News is Jesus Christ Himself, if we do not experience the power, the presence and the person of the Lord in our lives, then maybe we have not turned to Jesus and opened our hearts to Him so that we might know him as Lord and Savior.

I would be eager..indeed...awaiting with baited breath and a goofy smirk on my face to see this teaching in Scrupure.

I explain that He unlocks our hearts and minds and He wants to enter our lives and do His work in us. But we must invite Him.

wow, same as above.


that is all
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Why? Just because we don't call catholicisim a cult? It's totally apostate at best! JW's and Mormons Jesus isn't almighty God. He is Lucifers brother (angel) to the mormons. He is the son of God to the JWs' as well as a mighty god. To the catholics Jesus lives in a box behind the alter and spends his time being sacrificed at every mass performed.

None of them have the Jesus of the bible and are all in the same boat. All three will send a man to hell if he believes their doctrines.

And this post just shows you don't know what the Catholic Church teaches. There is that 're-sacrifice of Christ at every mass' fiction again.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
Why would it be hilarious? And why would you be so quick to mock? It appears that you are in a trail of error and rejection of the truth.
I know of the testimony of a girl, who is quite close to me.
She was "saved" at the age of 8 also. She got saved in Sunday School at an IFB church. Everything went well until Junior High School, when she started to rebel. When she was 15 she was approached by her pastor, who had quite a bit of discernment, and asked her right up front: "you aren't saved are you?" No, she wasn't. The "profession" she had made when she was 8 she did for her Sunday School teacher, not for the Lord. She wasn't saved. It was a profession of salvation, not a possession of Christ.

She prayed again, asking Christ to come into her heart as her Saviour. But her life didn't show it. The same rebellious attitude was present in her life. Nothing had changed. What again had happened was that she had "prayed and asked Jesus into her heart," because the pastor asked her to, to get him off her back, so to speak. Nothing changed in her life.

One year later, she went to a Bible Camp. The speaker at the camp was good with young people and was a powerful speaker. He preached the Word. One night she felt as if she was the only one in the room and every word he spoke was directed right at her. This was the conviction of the Holy Spirit working in her heart. At the end of the message, tears rolling down her cheeks, she literally ran to the wife of a pastor that she knew well, who led her to the Lord, and she has been living for the Lord ever since.

Your profession at 8 doesn't mean you were saved. Many people profess Christ and aren't saved. If the Holy Spirit wasn't present there, it was meaningless.
The Bible says: "examine yourselves and see whether you are in the faith."
It is good advice.

Great reply. Thanks for sharing that story.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
And this post just shows you don't know what the Catholic Church teaches. There is that 're-sacrifice of Christ at every mass' fiction again.
All three: J.W., Mormon, and the RCC are a religion based on works. Thus all three lead people to Hell and not to heaven.
Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Do you believe that?
Do you believe that salvation is by faith alone?
If not, your faith is no different than that of a J.W., or a Mormon.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
I would be eager..indeed...awaiting with baited breath and a goofy smirk on my face to see this teaching in Scrupure.


wow, same as above.


that is all

Well, the Lord seems to be able to work around my 'inadequacy' at presenting the gospel somehow.
Guess you will just have to ask Him how He did that when you get to heaven.
 

ReformedBaptist

Well-Known Member
And this post just shows you don't know what the Catholic Church teaches. There is that 're-sacrifice of Christ at every mass' fiction again.

Oh he knows. So do I.

Canon III. If any one saith, that the sacrifice of the mass is only a sacrifice of praise and of thanksgiving; or, that it is a bare commemoration of the sacrifice consummated on the cross, but not a propitiatory sacrifice; or, that it profits him only who receives; and that it ought not to be offered for the living and the dead for sins, pains, satisfactions, and other necessities: let him be anathema.

The Eucharist was instituted by our Lord for two great purposes, to be the celestial food for our soul, preserving and supporting spiritual life, and to give to the Church a perpetual sacrifice, by which sin may be expiated, and our heavenly Father, whom our crimes have often greviously offended, may be turned from wrath to mercy, from the severity of just vengeanceto the exercise of benignant clemency.


Vatican II

As often as the sacrifice of the cross in which “Christ, our passover, has been sacrificed” (1 Cor. 5:7) is celebrated on an altar, the work of our redemption is carried on.


At the Last Supper, on the night when He was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice of His Body and Blood. He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the Cross throughout the centuries until He should come again, and so to intrust to His beloved spouse, the Church, a memorial of His death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a paschal banquet in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us (The Documents of Vatican II (Chicago: Follett, 1966), Walter M. Abbott, S.J., General Editor, pp. 16, 418, 535, 140-141, 542, 154.)


The Code of Canon Law

Canon 897. The eucharistic Sacrifice, the memorial of the death and resurrection of the Lord, in which the Sacrifice of the cross is forever perpetuated, is the summit and the source of all worship and christian life.

The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism

1269. How does the Mass re-present Calvary?
The Mass re-presents Calvary by continuing Christ’s sacrifice of himself to his heavenly Father. In the Mass, no less than on Calvary, Jesus really offers his life to his heavenly Father.



What is stated as official Roman Catholic doctrine above is most blasphemous to those who know their Bibles, and that is why you get such a strong reaction. What that says to us in very plain english is that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is not complete.

We say with the Holy Scripture that Christ died, or was sacrificed, once for all. "For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God." Romans 6:10

There does not exist in Holy Scripture the idea of a perpetual and living sacrifice of Christ in the mass as taught by the papacy. What's more is nowhere in Scripture does it teach that the Eucharisitc celebration is a propitiation of sins!

"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1 John 2:2

It is Jesus Christ Himself that is the propitation for our sins, not the Eucharist. Nor can the Eucharist be an offering of Christ again in true sacrifice.

Hebrews 9

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

These passages are comparing the once sacrifice of Christ to the often sacrifices of the animals under the Old Covenant. But look at what it is actually telling. Not often offerred, but once offered.

But the mass that happens as often as it does happen, is proclaiming that it is offering the once sacrifice of Christ often!

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God" Heb 10:10-12

He offered one sacrifice for sins for ever. While I hear the papists saying they are not re-sacrificing Christ, but offering that same sacrifice over and over again, it makes no difference, because the Apostolic Tradition preserved in the Holy Scirptures says this offering was made once.
 

lori4dogs

New Member
Why would it be hilarious? And why would you be so quick to mock? It appears that you are in a trail of error and rejection of the truth.
I know of the testimony of a girl, who is quite close to me.
She was "saved" at the age of 8 also. She got saved in Sunday School at an IFB church. Everything went well until Junior High School, when she started to rebel. When she was 15 she was approached by her pastor, who had quite a bit of discernment, and asked her right up front: "you aren't saved are you?" No, she wasn't. The "profession" she had made when she was 8 she did for her Sunday School teacher, not for the Lord. She wasn't saved. It was a profession of salvation, not a possession of Christ.

She prayed again, asking Christ to come into her heart as her Saviour. But her life didn't show it. The same rebellious attitude was present in her life. Nothing had changed. What again had happened was that she had "prayed and asked Jesus into her heart," because the pastor asked her to, to get him off her back, so to speak. Nothing changed in her life.

One year later, she went to a Bible Camp. The speaker at the camp was good with young people and was a powerful speaker. He preached the Word. One night she felt as if she was the only one in the room and every word he spoke was directed right at her. This was the conviction of the Holy Spirit working in her heart. At the end of the message, tears rolling down her cheeks, she literally ran to the wife of a pastor that she knew well, who led her to the Lord, and she has been living for the Lord ever since.

Your profession at 8 doesn't mean you were saved. Many people profess Christ and aren't saved. If the Holy Spirit wasn't present there, it was meaningless.
The Bible says: "examine yourselves and see whether you are in the faith."
It is good advice.

Well, DHK, you don't know me. You don't know what my life was like before I came to Christ and you don't know that I've been living for the Lord ever since. No way I can show that in mere words on the BB. You would have to see that I 'walk the walk' and don't just 'talk the talk'. You are obviously hinting that I may never have known the Lord as Savior and simply went through the motions at church. As I know what you think about Catholics, I know you HAVE to conclude I was never saved. Otherwise my decision to become a Catholic Christian shoots down the 'Catholics aren't true believers myth'. Big problem for some others on the board as well.
 

Soulman

New Member
And this post just shows you don't know what the Catholic Church teaches. There is that 're-sacrifice of Christ at every mass' fiction again.

That is what it is called. "The sacrifice of the mass! I know exaqctly what they teach. Their Christ is not the same as the Christ of the bible.
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
For starts, I explain that the key to the Good News is Jesus Christ Himself, if we do not experience the power, the presence and the person of the Lord in our lives, then maybe we have not turned to Jesus and opened our hearts to Him so that we might know him as Lord and Savior.

But if I'm an unregenerate, unsaved person, why do I want the "presence and person" of your Lord "in my life". I like my life just the way it is, thank you very much.

I explain that He unlocks our hearts and minds and He wants to enter our lives and do His work in us.

What work is that?

What's wrong with my heart and mind the way it is?

I also explain that to know Him is to know that He is Savior and that we need him for salvation, power and headship.

Why do I need Him for salvation?

In knowing Jesus, we come to the know the Father who sent His Son so that through the Spirit of His Son in our hearts we might cry 'Father' and proclaim Jesus as Lord.

But God is already my father. Everyone is a child of God.

Why do you think I need your Jesus for that?

Many of the same scripture verses that you would be very familiar with are used in presenting Jesus to people who are predominately un-churched.

[**Breaking character and reverting to JohnDeerFan**] But is your purpose to see them saved, or to see them "churched"? The whole "unchurched" phenominon is a very recent one and one I don't like one bit.

Why not just call them lost or sinners, like the Bible says they are? Why the need to qualify everything and soften everything?

The Gospel is not politically correct and it is an abuse of God's word to try to make it so.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Well, DHK, you don't know me. You don't know what my life was like before I came to Christ and you don't know that I've been living for the Lord ever since. No way I can show that in mere words on the BB. You would have to see that I 'walk the walk' and don't just 'talk the talk'. You are obviously hinting that I may never have known the Lord as Savior and simply went through the motions at church. As I know what you think about Catholics, I know you HAVE to conclude I was never saved. Otherwise my decision to become a Catholic Christian shoots down the 'Catholics aren't true believers myth'. Big problem for some others on the board as well.
You are relatively new to the Catholic Church, and may be still somewhat confused. I could give you the benefit of the doubt on that ground.
But for people like "Carson" who was once on this board, and their apologist Keating, and other such men, there is no excuse. I will say without reservation that such men who know the gospel well and know RCC doctrine well, cannot believe both at the same time and be saved. You believe either one or the other, but not both. That is why these men cannot be saved. They are in a church that preaches a false gospel. The new birth to the RCC means baptism which is as far from the truth as is possible.

Think of that. Jesus said: Except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. There is a Kingdom of God. If I were you I would do everything in my power to make sure that after I die I will someday enter that kingdom. That means that I must be born again. If I am wrong on that point I will spend eternity in Hell. You must be born again. Jesus made that statement 3 times for emphasis.

It does not mean baptism. The new birth has nothing to do with baptism. If all the Catholic apologists, the magesterium, and even yourselves believe this, then how can you possibly think that you are going to heaven. You are not born again. If you are not born again by baptism. It is impossible. I will guarantee you that. I will stake my life on it. You must be born again. The Catholic Church has no concept of the new birth, and thus no concept of salvation. How, therefore can they be saved?
 

lori4dogs

New Member
The Catechism:1269. How does the Mass re-present Calvary?
The Mass re-presents Calvary by continuing Christ’s sacrifice of himself to his heavenly Father. In the Mass, no less than on Calvary, Jesus really offers his life to his heavenly Father.

No re-sacrifice but re-present. No bloody sacrifice. It was 'one oblation of Himself once offered'. That sacrifice is for all eternity.

But this is off-topic
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
1269. How does the Mass re-present Calvary?
The Mass re-presents Calvary by continuing Christ’s sacrifice of himself to his heavenly Father. In the Mass, no less than on Calvary, Jesus really offers his life to his heavenly Father.

No re-sacrifice but re-present. No bloody sacrifice. It was 'one oblation of Himself once offered'. That sacrifice is for all eternity.

How can you say that there is no re-sacrifice, out of one side of your mouth and then turn around and say "Jesus really offers His life to His Heavenly Father" out of the other?

Are you Barrack Obama posting under a pseudonym?
 

Soulman

New Member
Lori4dogs, You are obviously a modern day catholic that thinks the catholic church preaches salvation as does every true christian church. I could buy that if
1. We didn't have to confess our sins to a man. Jesus says He is the mediator between God and man.

2. Along with partial forgiveness we must perform pennance to help atone for our sins. The bible says Jesus paid it all!

3.The catholics baptize babies to gain forgiveness for origional sin. If they die before baptizim they go to limbo. A totally made up place.

4. Even if we live a good life and go to church we have to go to purgatory when we die to PAY FOR SINS. If we could pay for sins then why did Jesus go to the cross? Why is he continuously sacrificed if we have to pay anyways?
 

Agnus_Dei

New Member
I know of the testimony of a girl, who is quite close to me.She was "saved" at the age of 8 also. She got saved in Sunday School at an IFB church. Everything went well until Junior High School, when she started to rebel. When she was 15 she was approached by her pastor, who had quite a bit of discernment, and asked her right up front: "you aren't saved are you?" No, she wasn't. The "profession" she had made when she was 8 she did for her Sunday School teacher, not for the Lord. She wasn't saved. It was a profession of salvation, not a possession of Christ.
LOL...How many teen aged kids don't go through a "rebellious" stage in their lives...get a grip...

Her pastor had "discernment", what is that some special gift to have to determine if a person is "saved" or not?

I don't know the girl, but I'm willing to bet she was saved, but once the pastor cornered her and started using terms like "profession of salvation" and "possession of Christ" and interrogation tactics like "you aren't sure you're saved" and "you did it for your teacher" are classic IFB tactics to confuse an individual to doubt they were really saved in the first place...

I'm sure his intentions were good, the young girl probably needed a heart to heart talking and repentance in order...but to trick her into believing she never was saved is cruel...now whenever she falls into sin again, she's going to think she never was saved the second time...

In XC
-
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
LOL...How many teen aged kids don't go through a "rebellious" stage in their lives...get a grip...

Her pastor had "discernment", what is that some special gift to have to determine if a person is "saved" or not?

I don't know the girl, but I'm willing to bet she was saved, but once the pastor cornered her and started using terms like "profession of salvation" and "possession of Christ" and interrogation tactics like "you aren't sure you're saved" and "you did it for your teacher" are classic IFB tactics to confuse an individual to doubt they were really saved in the first place...

I'm sure his intentions were good, the young girl probably needed a heart to heart talking and repentance in order...but to trick her into believing she never was saved is cruel...now whenever she falls into sin again, she's going to think she never was saved the second time...

In XC
-

Actually, the odds are better that she wasn't.

First of all, the Bible is very clear that when we're born again, we receive a new nature. While it's true, as you said, that all teenagers go through a rebellious period (as well as many adults), if this lasts longer than a season and the person isn't repentant, then that's a huge red flag that they may have a professed faith, but not a saving faith.

While we must always be very careful when examining someone's salvation, so as not to root up wheat along with the tares, among other things, the Bible is also very clear that there are times when we must look at somebody's behavior and judge it in light of scripture. It also tells us in 1 John that there are things that will inevitably follow when someone is born again and those things are either present or they're not. If they're not, then that's evidence that they may not be saved.

Second, while I don't believe that children can't be saved, I'm highly skeptical of an eight year old's ability to fully grasp the moral consequences of their sin and their standing before a holy God and repent. Likewise, I am skeptical of their ability to fully grasp the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

From what was described, this sounds like another of the emotional, feel good "come on, you want to be Jesus' friend, right? Well just say this prayer!" kind of things that produce so many false converts.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
LOL...How many teen aged kids don't go through a "rebellious" stage in their lives...get a grip...
I do have a grip; you don't; you don't have a grip of salvation, the understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life. This is just academia to you. It is words, with no visible results. When someone gets saved we see the results; a genuine change in behaviour. It is not just an academic exercise.
Her pastor had "discernment", what is that some special gift to have to determine if a person is "saved" or not?
It is a spiritual gift that is given more to some than to others. This is real. But again it is all academic to you. You lack spiritual discernment. Consider well:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The Bible calls the "natural" or unsaved person as one who is "spiritually discerned" that is he cannot discern between spiritual things. He has no spiritual discernment at all. Perhaps this is why you don't know what I am talking about, and another evidence to back up what I said in my original post.
I don't know the girl, but I'm willing to bet she was saved, but once the pastor cornered her and started using terms like "profession of salvation" and "possession of Christ" and interrogation tactics like "you aren't sure you're saved" and "you did it for your teacher" are classic IFB tactics to confuse an individual to doubt they were really saved in the first place...
I know the girl very well. There were no interrogation tactics. Speaking the truth in love is not interrogation. Wise counsel is not interrogation. Counsel is not interrogation. Showing one the Scriptures and sharing from them is not interrogation. Showing love to someone is not interrogation you. You said: "I'm willing to bet". Well the Catholic's propensity for gambling is sinking sand compared to the sure rock of Jesus Christ upon which this girl now stands. No she wasn't saved. She admitted she wasn't saved. In order to become a member of the church, she had to read the constitution, agree to the statement of faith, give her testimony of salvation in front of the entire church, be baptized and accepted by congregational vote. Because of her testimony one other person that night got saved; trusted the Lord for forgiveness of his sins through the shed blood of Christ.
If showing the love of Christ is a tactic, then we need more of them.
I'm sure his intentions were good, the young girl probably needed a heart to heart talking and repentance in order...but to trick her into believing she never was saved is cruel...now whenever she falls into sin again, she's going to think she never was saved the second time...
How about I come out and say the truth. You are cruel to suggest such things when you never witnessed what happened. How could you deny such things. I believe you have never witnessed the Holy Spirit working in an individual's heart, possibly even your own.
Has He? If so how?
 

Amy.G

New Member
Discernment is definitely one of the spiritual gifts.

1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
 

Soulman

New Member
How can you say that there is no re-sacrifice, out of one side of your mouth and then turn around and say "Jesus really offers His life to His Heavenly Father" out of the other

The whole thing with catholicisim is that Christ is not sufficient. If He isn't there cannot be salvation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top