Are Catholics saved or even christians?

[JohnDeereFan]

But, in my time in Roman Catholic RCIA classes 3 or so years ago, I don't remember them saying that Catholics are saved by works nor do I ever remember reading such

So, in three years, you never heard Purgatory mentioned once?

...so I'm not sure where you are getting your information from or you are just misunderstanding the terminology...I don't know.

I take it you missed the part where I reminded you that I quoted four Catholic sources.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

As I've stated before if you are going to argue against Catholicism argue against what they actually believe. I think I've already quoted the Catachism on their belief of purgatory which doesn't match yours.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

How so? I've studied history pretty intently and this is the truth not a misconception.

Actually, it isn't history at all. It's a Catholic lie.

There was one church, neither Catholic nor Protestant, nor Orthodox. Just one church.

It was this church that held those councils, not the Catholic church. The Catholic church as we know it didn't really take shape until several hundred years later.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

As I've stated before if you are going to argue against Catholicism argue against what they actually believe. I think I've already quoted the Catachism on their belief of purgatory which doesn't match yours.

Actually, both ReformedBaptist and I quoted from both the CCC and the Council of Trent.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually, it isn't history at all. It's a Catholic lie.

There was one church, neither Catholic nor Protestant, nor Orthodox. Just one church.

It was this church that held those councils, not the Catholic church. The Catholic church as we know it didn't really take shape until several hundred years later.

See you picking hairs in order to change history. Christianity entire was called Catholic or Universal. If you read the early Church writers and process on decision making they have distinctiveness similar to the Western Catholic and The Eastern Orthodox not similar to the Reformed thinkers of the 1400's.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Actually, both ReformedBaptist and I quoted from both the CCC and the Council of Trent.

The CCC clarifies Trent.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

So, in three years, you never heard Purgatory mentioned once?

Let me take this slow...As I was researching the Roman Catholic Church, I did in fact hear of and was taught the dogma of Purgatory while attending Roman Catholic RCIA...and yes, they did seem to make a good argument from Scripture.

But...as I began my Orthodox Catechesis classes, I began having second thoughts in regard the dogma of Purgatory...as well as other aspects of Roman Catholic dogma and theology...as in the infallibility of the Pope, immaculate conception, the view of 'original sin' and their sacramental theology...to name a few.

I spent over 5 years prayerfully researching other Protestant denominations, Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy, before I converted to Orthodox.

I sincerely believe that when Christ said that he who seeks the truth will be shown the truth, but first I personally had to disconnect from my former self of thinking I knew everything and step outside and seek the truth with an unbiased frame of mind.

I take it you missed the part where I reminded you that I quoted four Catholic sources.

I remind you again, I'm not Roman Catholic, so when you intermingle Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy together, I will respond from an Orthodox perspective, which may or may not be a view held by Roman Catholicism.

Hope that helps

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Just one church...It was this church that held those councils...

This IS very interesting to me...

You believe there is one Church and you believe that this Church held councils...so where do you believe this Church is today?

These councils you believe also developed our Creed...do you also believe and recite the Creed every Sunday?

These councils were held by great theologians and doctors of the Church...many of whom have volumes of writings in regard to Church practice, structure and theology...do you acknowledge this fact and if so, why haven't you read any of these?

If you have, yet believe in these councils, how can you even remain a Protestant?

...not the Catholic church. The Catholic church as we know it didn't really take shape until several hundred years later.

As Thinkingstuff has eluded to, the early Church was often referred to as catholic...so don't confuse "catholic" with Roman Catholic...

You mention above "councils" of the Church...If you mention and believe such councils existed, then you must be aware that there were Five (5) Patriarchates: Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandra...In 1054, the Patriarch of Rome, excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople, thus separating Rome from the remaining Four (4) Patriarchates...

Over time the Patriarchate of Rome, became known as the Roman Catholic Church and the others became known as the Eastern Orthodox Church.

So yes, I agree that the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today took shape and took on its own identity shortly after the split in 1054.

In XC
-

 

[lori4dogs]

Johndeerfan said: 'You really should be having this conversation with lori4dogs. After all, she's admitted several times that Catholics have to work for their salvation and yet, you don't seem to have a problem with it when she says it.'

NEVER SAID IT . . . . EVER!!

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Johndeerfan said: 'You really should be having this conversation with lori4dogs. After all, she's admitted several times that Catholics have to work for their salvation and yet, you don't seem to have a problem with it when she says it.'

Never said it, ever!

Yes, you did. You did it in two different threads. You're the one who brought up the idea that sanctification is a part of salvation and that we must "complete [our own] holiness".

I'm not the only poster who called you on it, either.

So yes, I agree that the Roman Catholic Church as we know it today took shape and took on its own identity shortly after the split in 1054.

Then your claim is false and the rest of your post is moot.

Let me take this slow...As I was researching the Roman Catholic Church, I did in fact hear of and was taught the dogma of Purgatory while attending Roman Catholic RCIA

Then, by your own admission, your claim is false.

See you picking hairs in order to change history.

No, actually, I haven't "picked hairs" or changed history.

Even Angus Dei, who is a defender of the Catholic religion has acknowledged that what I said is true (although his date is off a little).

 

[Johnv]

Just a thought here. Is it possible one person might be arguing holiness, while another might be arguing grace? The only reason I ask is because I've seen that argument in Pentecostal vs Presbyterian/Reformed debates.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes, you did. You did it in two different threads. You're the one who brought up the idea that sanctification is a part of salvation and that we must "complete [our own] holiness".

I'm not the only poster who called you on it, either.



Then your claim is false and the rest of your post is moot.



Then, by your own admission, your claim is false.



No, actually, I haven't "picked hairs" or changed history.

Even Angus Dei, who is a defender of the Catholic religion has acknowledged that what I said is true (although his date is off a little).

He hasn't agreed with you. He's saying that the Schizm of 1054 caused the east - west split and the Western Catholics becamed Known as Roman Catholics and the Eastern Catholics became known as Orthodox. So in fact when you say there was a singular Catholic Church in 325 AD and that it was truelly the Christian Church but that church is not represented in the Current Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church then you are Changing history. If you read the writings of these same people who presided at these councils that made the determination of the Trinity, dual nature of Christ, etc... then you will find that their distinctiveness more closely matches the Roman Catholic/Orthdox distinctiveness than it does the reformed distinctiveness.

 

[lori4dogs]

Yes, you did. You did it in two different threads. You're the one who brought up the idea that sanctification is a part of salvation and that we must "complete [our own] holiness".


I'm not the only poster who called you on it, either.



Then your claim is false and the rest of your post is moot.



Then, by your own admission, your claim is false.



No, actually, I haven't "picked hairs" or changed history.

Even Angus Dei, who is a defender of the Catholic religion has acknowledged that what I said is true (although his date is off a little).

This is what I said:

t is absolutely correct to say that Christ accomplished all of our salvation for us on the cross. But that does not settle the question of how this redemption is applied to us. Matt brought that up. Scripture reveals that it is applied to us over the course of time through, among other things, the process of sanctification through which the Christian is made holy. Sanctification involves suffering (Rom. 5:3–5), and purgatory is the final stage of sanctification that some of us need to undergo before we enter heaven. Purgatory is the final phase of Christ’s applying to us the purifying redemption that He accomplished for us by his death on the cross.

 

[Darron Steele]

As I've stated before if you are going to argue against Catholicism argue against what they actually believe. ...

This has been said to people like this individual many times
-- but do you not understand that doing so is `not nearly as fun'?

They are not going to do it. Criticizing Catholicism on just grounds requires
1) giving up the fun of recklessly tossing criticisms of Catholicism without regards to validity or lack thereof,
2) real research and disciplined attention to views one does not like.
Nope: it requires giving up something that is a lot of fun to them and it requires an effort and self-discipline; they will not do it.

However, I have noticed some improvement. At least the criticisms are less about smearing Catholic people, and more about opposing Catholicism as a religious system.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

This has been said to people like this individual many times
-- but do you not understand that doing so is `not nearly as fun'?

They are not going to do it. Criticizing Catholicism on just grounds requires
1) giving up the fun of recklessly tossing criticisms of Catholicism without regards to validity or lack thereof,
2) real research and disciplined attention to views one does not like.
Nope: it requires giving up something that is a lot of fun to them and it requires an effort and self-discipline; they will not do it.

However, I have noticed some improvement. At least the criticisms are less about smearing Catholic people, and more about opposing Catholicism as a religious system.

i would agree with that assessment...while I was a Baptist it was fun to debate the Catholics and the internet wasn't short on ammunition to use either!

In XC
-

 

[lori4dogs]

i would agree with that assessment...while I was a Baptist it was fun to debate the Catholics and the internet wasn't short on ammunition to use either!

In XC
-

What is surprising is that some go as far as to publish lies in order to slander the Church. Chick publications state the following:



The Catholic Church keeps "the name of every Protestant church member in the world" in a "big computer" in the Vatican for use in future persecutions.[1]

*

But the conspiracy is much broader than this, and it has been going on for a very long time. In the sixth century, for instance, Catholic leaders manipulated the Arabian tribesman Mohammed into creating the religion of Islam to use as a weapon against the Jews and to conquer Jerusalem for the pope.[2]

*

The Jesuits instigated the American Civil War, supporting the Confederate cause and seeking to undermine the Union. When they failed, they arranged the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.[3] Later, they formed the Ku Klux Klan.[4]

*

"Jesuits worked closely with Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin" to create Communism, and it was "believed that soon . . . Communism would rise up as the new strong daughter of the Vatican."[5] It was Rome that instigated the Bolshevik Revolution and the murder of the czar’s family.[6] The Communist "liberation theology" movement also is a Vatican plot.[7]

*

The Nazi Holocaust of the 1940s was a Vatican-controlled attempt to exterminate Jews and heretics.[8] Further, "Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco were backed by the Vatican for the purpose of setting up a one-world government to usher in the ‘Millennial Kingdom’ under Pope Pius XII."[9]

*

The Vatican conspiracy is so extensive that, through the Jesuits, Rome controls the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations, international bankers, the Mafia, the Club of Rome, the Masons, and the New Age movement.[10]

*

The Jesuits created the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Unity, Christian Science, and other religious groups.[11]

*

"Pope John Paul II has been a good Communist for many years"[12] and engineered a phony assassination attempt against himself in 1981 to shame Islam into warming relations with the Vatican, since the would-be killer was a Muslim.[13]

Apparently the end justifies the means when it comes to battling the 'Great Whore'.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What is surprising is that some go as far as to publish lies in order to slander the Church. Chick publications state the following:



The Catholic Church keeps "the name of every Protestant church member in the world" in a "big computer" in the Vatican for use in future persecutions.[1]

*

But the conspiracy is much broader than this, and it has been going on for a very long time. In the sixth century, for instance, Catholic leaders manipulated the Arabian tribesman Mohammed into creating the religion of Islam to use as a weapon against the Jews and to conquer Jerusalem for the pope.[2]

*

The Jesuits instigated the American Civil War, supporting the Confederate cause and seeking to undermine the Union. When they failed, they arranged the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.[3] Later, they formed the Ku Klux Klan.[4]

*

"Jesuits worked closely with Marx, Engels, Trotsky, Lenin, and Stalin" to create Communism, and it was "believed that soon . . . Communism would rise up as the new strong daughter of the Vatican."[5] It was Rome that instigated the Bolshevik Revolution and the murder of the czar’s family.[6] The Communist "liberation theology" movement also is a Vatican plot.[7]

*

The Nazi Holocaust of the 1940s was a Vatican-controlled attempt to exterminate Jews and heretics.[8] Further, "Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco were backed by the Vatican for the purpose of setting up a one-world government to usher in the ‘Millennial Kingdom’ under Pope Pius XII."[9]

*

The Vatican conspiracy is so extensive that, through the Jesuits, Rome controls the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relations, international bankers, the Mafia, the Club of Rome, the Masons, and the New Age movement.[10]

*

The Jesuits created the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Unity, Christian Science, and other religious groups.[11]

*

"Pope John Paul II has been a good Communist for many years"[12] and engineered a phony assassination attempt against himself in 1981 to shame Islam into warming relations with the Vatican, since the would-be killer was a Muslim.[13]

Apparently the end justifies the means when it comes to battling the 'Great Whore'.

Uh....wait.....Those are true statements....
Lets see a Jesuit priest spy masqurading as a soviet diplomat told me that

The Catholic Church keeps "the name of every Protestant church member in the world" in a "big computer" in the Vatican for use in future persecutions.[1]

this computer is lovingly referred to as hexakósioi hexēkonta héx. FYI

 

[lori4dogs]

this computer is lovingly referred to as hexakósioi hexēkonta héx. FYI

. . . . . . and it is robed in purple and wears a mitre!

 

[Darron Steele]

:laugh: :laugh: for both of your posts. Thank you.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

For the record, I have posted several statements that have gone unrefuted by any Roman Catholic or otherwise. I will assume that it is because no Roman Catholic on this discussion board is able to.