Are Catholics saved or even christians?

[Darron Steele]

Lori,

For you to be convinced that Baptist doctrines are unsound and that Roman Catholic doctrines are sound just shows to me that you may not have been thoroughly grounded and taught by your pastor(s) and elders.

Catholics are NOT Christians if we want to say that ALL Catholics are Christians.

There ARE Roman Catholics who are Christians based not on what doctrines they hold on to right now, but based on the choice of God of them in eternity past and without a doubt, in His own due time, He will regenerate each one of them, and conversion from error to truth will begin.

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic in a Roman Catholic country by devout Roman Catholics in my family, and I studied in Roman Catholic schools all the way to before graduation in High School, so I should know something about Roman Catholicism.

But I have no idea of your background as a former Baptist, it may have been disappointing since it is also true that the conduct of those with whom we associate could likely turn us off, and drive us into the arms of those who we otherwise wouldn't associate with.

Almost happened to me.

Almost driven from being Baptist to just being non-denominational in truth and in deed had it not been for God bringing me to the Primitive Baptists.

I have observed that Catholicism differs from world region to world region.

I went to Latin America in high school on a missionary trip under the auspices of the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism. What I saw among Catholics was much more similar to paganism and spiritism than anything you see in the United States.

Here in the U.S., I served plenty in a Catholic school as a substitute teacher in January-March 2000, and in fall 2001 did student teaching in a Catholic K-8 school. I have also visited Catholic Mass a number of times over the past 11 years. What I see among Catholics here in the U.S. is much more similar to Evangelicalism than what I saw in Latin America.

I doubt that Roman Catholicism does not similarly differ all over the world, despite the Vatican's claim that all Catholics `march to their drum.' The Vatican might claim `We pronounce, and the Catholic faithful follow,' but it simply is not so.

 

[Soulman]

And the original answer is that a person's religious affiliation does not dictate their salvific state. A member of the Roman Catholic Church who accepts the gift of salvation from Christ is heavenbound. Period.

Of course it does! If you believe a lie how can you be saved?

Equally amazing is how so many baptist ignore evidence that blows huge holes in that claim.

Please elaborate

No religious institution measures up to the teachings of scripture. That's why religious institutions are incapable of saving anyone.

Now yer gittin it!

Translation: "If you disagree with me, then you must be wrong, because I wouldn't even give one shred of consideration to the notion that I might be in error."

If you disagree with the bible then you must be wrong. The bible isn't there for everyone to form their own opinions. It is there that we might have life and it warns us of false religions. Catholics don't even have the same Christ as christians. Theirs lives in a little box behind the alter waiting for the pain of continuously being sacrificed thousands of times a day around the world. My Lord was sacrificed once and resides in heaven.

 

[Matt Black]

Ah, so you're now equating yourself with the Bible? Neat!

 

[targus]

Ah, so you're now equating yourself with the Bible? Neat!

Kind of like saying, "I live my life according to the Bible. So if someone says that I did something wrong, they are saying that the Bible is wrong."

 

[JohnDeereFan]

The way I see it...you used to be baptist and so did I...you're Roman Catholic and I'm Orthodox...as baptists it was "once saved always saved"...so it looks like we at least have our bases covered...

In XC
-

OSAS only applies if one is saved in the first place. If one leaves Christianity for a false religion, that's a good sign they were never saved in the first place.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

OSAS only applies if one is saved in the first place. If one leaves Christianity for a false religion, that's a good sign they were never saved in the first place.

so let me get this straight...I'm 38 years old...I was raised a baptist...the ONLY true baptist mind you, a Independent Fundamental Baptist...saved during Sunday school around 8 years-old...

I've been an Orthodox Christian for 2 years now...

SO, you're saying that for 36 years I was NEVER saved in the first place?

YOU are HILARIOUS!!!! H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S!!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

So...Once Saved ALWAYS Saved, is conditional only IF I remain a Baptist? Or an Evangelical? Regardless IF I continue to abide in Christ...?????

Wow...look at ALL the lost souls before the Reformation and to think that God had His hands tied before a little 'ol baptist reformer came along and finally, after over 1,500 years, figured it ALL out...:applause:

In XC
-

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Lori,

For you to be convinced that Baptist doctrines are unsound and that Roman Catholic doctrines are sound just shows to me that you may not have been thoroughly grounded and taught by your pastor(s) and elders.

Catholics are NOT Christians if we want to say that ALL Catholics are Christians.

There ARE Roman Catholics who are Christians based not on what doctrines they hold on to right now, but based on the choice of God of them in eternity past and without a doubt, in His own due time, He will regenerate each one of them, and conversion from error to truth will begin.

I was born and raised a Roman Catholic in a Roman Catholic country by devout Roman Catholics in my family, and I studied in Roman Catholic schools all the way to before graduation in High School, so I should know something about Roman Catholicism.

But I have no idea of your background as a former Baptist, it may have been disappointing since it is also true that the conduct of those with whom we associate could likely turn us off, and drive us into the arms of those who we otherwise wouldn't associate with.

Almost happened to me.

Almost driven from being Baptist to just being non-denominational in truth and in deed had it not been for God bringing me to the Primitive Baptists.

In my experience there is what the Catholic Church teaches and what its layity think it teaches. More often than not they don't coincide. The layity will say all sorts of stupid things like bury a statue of St. Joseph in your yard and your house will sell. The fact is this is against the Magisterium and it isn't what the church teaches. I've actually learned more about Catholicism since leaving the Catholic Church than when I was raised in it. In fact most catholics think along these lines. "I do whats required and it stops there. People who want to study the bible; get into theology should be priest or the religious." so there is this distinction in the lay mind of how things are supposed to work. Yet they don't even know their own doctrine because they think they do enough. Now this is a serious problem of Catachesis. But more importantly what we have are non-trained Catholics that aren't really Catholics but not much more than pagans running around believing what their are told by people with no authority. That alone tells me that there is a serious issue with the Catholic Church. But it also tells me that most things levied against the Catholic Church are based on the uneducated laity.

 

[Johnv]

If you disagree with the bible then you must be wrong.

It's less a matter of disagreeing with the bible, and more an issue with not agreeing with your application of scripture upon persons. The "you disagree with the Bible" is a common argument on topics such as clavinism/arminianism, millenialism, pre/post trib, and so on and so on.

The bible isn't there for everyone to form their own opinions.

Yet that's exactly what your'e doing.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

so let me get this straight...I'm 38 years old...I was raised a baptist...the ONLY true baptist mind you, a Independent Fundamental Baptist...saved during Sunday school around 8 years-old...

I've been an Orthodox Christian for 2 years now...

SO, you're saying that for 36 years I was NEVER saved in the first place?

YOU are HILARIOUS!!!! H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S!!!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Actually, if you'd bothered to read my post, I never stated that anyone was unsaved. Although, in all honesty, I don't see how a two year old can do those things the Bible says are required to be saved.

Wow...look at ALL the lost souls before the Reformation and to think that God had His hands tied before a little 'ol baptist reformer came along and finally, after over 1,500 years, figured it ALL out...:applause:

Are you implying that this is what I said?

 

[Johnv]

Actually, if you'd have bothered to read my post, I never stated that anyone was unsaved.

That's a categorical falsehood. You stated very concisely that Roman Catholics are categorically unsaved.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I have observed that Catholicism differs from world region to world region.

I went to Latin America in high school on a missionary trip under the auspices of the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism. What I saw among Catholics was much more similar to paganism and spiritism than anything you see in the United States.

Here in the U.S., I served plenty in a Catholic school as a substitute teacher in January-March 2000, and in fall 2001 did student teaching in a Catholic K-8 school. I have also visited Catholic Mass a number of times over the past 11 years. What I see among Catholics here in the U.S. is much more similar to Evangelicalism than what I saw in Latin America.

I doubt that Roman Catholicism does not similarly differ all over the world, despite the Vatican's claim that all Catholics `march to their drum.' The Vatican might claim `We pronounce, and the Catholic faithful follow,' but it simply is not so.

Oh, that's true, I guess.
In my country every January they take this "Black Nazarene" statue of somebody supposed to depict Christ on the cross and parade it around a major district of Manila and people climb and fight each other to get on top and get to rub the statue with their hands and handkerchief.

Then every "Good" Friday there are "crucifixions" of "penitents".

Then if you go South there's this big church with a big front yard and when you get off a vehicle in front this women, young and old, selling candles rush to meet you offering to light up a candle for you and dance for your wish.

But I guess what drove me to atheism then was when I was vacationing at my mom's home province and her relatives lived in a mountain village about 15 miles from the town, and an uncle died, and we brought his corpse down to town to be blessed by the parish priest, going thru creeks and rivers and bamboo bridges with the coffin on our shoulders and got to church and the priest was nowhere and the church attendant, a layman, whispered to us the good "Father" was playing mahjjong with some friends and couldn't come.

so we said we'd wait.

And it took a 36 hour wait before the priest came and angrily and hastily "blessed" the corpse.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

That's a categorical falsehood. You stated very concisely that Roman Catholics are categorically unsaved.

No, actually what I said was "Catholicism is like Mormonism in the sense that, while there may be some people within the Catholic Church who are saved, they're saved in spite of Catholic doctrine, not because of it".

I even acknowledged that there may be some people within Catholicism who are saved.

But then, why let the facts stand in the way.

 

[Soulman]

bySoulman: I find it amazing how so many baptists simply ignore the evidence that catholicisim is a religion bent on taking people to hell.

The religion is, true. But the blood of Jesus Christ shed at the cross is more powerful than the grip or doctrine of a religion, and it was not shed on condition that the redeemed individual sinner be non-Catholic.

I basically agree with what you stated Pinoy. All I am saying is that if a catholic hears the gospel and gets saved that God will lead them out of that system. The same as He will with all false teachings. He tells us that we will know the truth. Only fragments of the truth are taught in catholicisim.

Some may ask: Are you saying only narrow minded baptists can be saved? Emphatically NO! I am saying that only those that hear the true gospel of the bible and respond accordingly to it will be saved. That would make those that do christians because we seek out the truth of Gods word.

Does catholic doctrine teach the gospel of salvation? No.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Oh, that's true, I guess.
In my country every January they take this "Black Nazarene" statue of somebody supposed to depict Christ on the cross and parade it around a major district of Manila and people climb and fight each other to get on top and get to rub the statue with their hands and handkerchief.

Then every "Good" Friday there are "crucifixions" of "penitents".

Then if you go South there's this big church with a big front yard and when you get off a vehicle in front this women, young and old, selling candles rush to meet you offering to light up a candle for you and dance for your wish.

But I guess what drove me to atheism then was when I was vacationing at my mom's home province and her relatives lived in a mountain village about 15 miles from the town, and an uncle died, and we brought his corpse down to town to be blessed by the parish priest, going thru creeks and rivers and bamboo bridges with the coffin on our shoulders and got to church and the priest was nowhere and the church attendant, a layman, whispered to us the good "Father" was playing mahjjong with some friends and couldn't come.

so we said we'd wait.

And it took a 36 hour wait before the priest came and angrily and hastily "blessed" the corpse.

Aren't all individual churches different? My own experience with the Catholic church is much different than most of you. The Catholic church near my home is an evangelical (and charismatic) Catholic church. I realize that may sound like an oxymoron to most of you, but they are out there.

They have weekly Bible studies. Many women who attend BSF on weekly basis (located at my church) are from this church. They have praise & worship services on Thursday nights. Many parents from this church send their kids to our Christian school rather than to one of the many Catholic schools in town (which BTW are much cheaper). I've even been to a funeral there where an inivitation was given -- (bow your heads, close your eyes, sinners prayer).

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Aren't all individual churches different? My own experience with the Catholic church is much different than most of you. The Catholic church near my home is an evangelical (and charismatic) Catholic church. I realize that may sound like an oxymoron to most of you, but they are out there.

They have weekly Bible studies. Many women who attend BSF on weekly basis (located at my church) are from this church. They have praise & worship services on Thursday nights. Many parents from this church send their kids to our Christian school rather than to one of the many Catholic schools in town (which BTW are much cheaper). I've even been to a funeral there where an inivitation was given -- (bow your heads, close your eyes, sinners prayer).

So they found a way to put more sheep's clothing on?

 

[Johnv]

No, actually what I said was "Catholicism is like Mormonism in the sense that, while there may be some people within the Catholic Church who are saved, they're saved in spite of Catholic doctrine, not because of it".

Would you agree with me, then, that it is not a person's religious affiliation that dictates a person's salvation, and that one cannot presume a Catholic is hellbound (or, for that matter, heavenbound) simply because they are Catholic or not.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Aren't all individual churches different? My own experience with the Catholic church is much different than most of you. The Catholic church near my home is an evangelical (and charismatic) Catholic church. I realize that may sound like an oxymoron to most of you, but they are out there.

They have weekly Bible studies. Many women who attend BSF on weekly basis (located at my church) are from this church. They have praise & worship services on Thursday nights. Many parents from this church send their kids to our Christian school rather than to one of the many Catholic schools in town (which BTW are much cheaper). I've even been to a funeral there where an inivitation was given -- (bow your heads, close your eyes, sinners prayer).

I know what you mean. We have a very large Mormon church in our area and they're always telling people about Jesus. Why, just to prove that they're Christians just like us, they even go door to door to tell people about Jesus.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Would you agree with me, then, that it is not a person's religious affiliation that dictates a person's salvation, and that one cannot presume a Catholic is hellbound (or, for that matter, heavenbound) simply because they are Catholic or not.

No. I cannot agree with you. Jesus was very clear that He is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, the ONLY life and that there is no other way to the Father but by Him, though the plan laid out in scripture.

So, no, you cannot follow a false religion and another Gospel and be saved.

Second, I repeat the fact that I did acknowledge that there could be some people in the Catholic church who are saved, but are saved in spite of Catholic doctrine, not because of it.

By the way, I saw the thread in which you endorsed known false teacher, Robert A. Schuller.

 

[Johnv]

No. I cannot agree with you. Jesus was very clear that He is the ONLY way, the ONLY truth, the ONLY life and that there is no other way to the Father but by Him, though the plan laid out in scripture.

So, no, you cannot follow a false religion and another Gospel and be saved.

Second, I repeat the fact that I did acknowledge that there could be some people in the Catholic church who are saved, but are saved in spite of Catholic doctrine, not because of it.

That's sufficient for me to at least retract what I said, when I claimed you have stated that Roman Catholics are categorically unsaved. It doesn't hwoever sound like you're saying that Roman Catholics are generally unsaved. Is that what you're saying?

By the way, I saw the thread in which you endorsed known false teacher, Robert A. Schuller.

You might be confusing Robert A Schuller with his father, Robert H Schuller. Robert A Schuller is not a false teacher by any strech of the imagination.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

That's sufficient for me to at least retract what I said, when I claimed you have stated that Roman Catholics are categorically unsaved. It doesn't hwoever sound like you're saying that Roman Catholics are generally unsaved. Is that what you're saying?

You might be confusing Robert A Schuller with his father, Robert H Schuller. Robert A Schuller is not a false teacher by any strech of the imagination.

Robert Anthony Schuller (born October 7, 1954, in Blue Island, Illinois) is an American televangelist and author, formerly a minister on the Hour of Power weekly television program broadcast from the Crystal Cathedral in Orange County, California, where he was named senior pastor in 2006.[1][2] An ordained minister, he is the only son of Crystal Cathedral founder Robert H. Schuller and Arvella Schuller. He is the best-selling author of Possibility Living and Walking in Your Own Shoes. On October 25, 2008, he was removed from the Hour of Power television broadcasts while retaining his position as Senior Pastor of the Crystal Cathedral. According to the Hour of Power website, he resigned as Senior Pastor on November 29, 2008. Plans for his future ministry are unknown at this time.

So what is he doing these days? Did he repent or something from the false doctrines and false Gospel of his Dad's church?

Added: The above quote is from wiki, so I assume its right?