Are Catholics saved or even christians?

[SolaSaint]

So what do we do with the millions and millions of faithful Christians who happened to live in times before Baptists existed?

I would have to say that we are to bend a knee to the sovereignty of God, for we can say the same today; "what about the billions that don't have the correct doctrine of justification?" I believe that salvation is of God alone, and He will save those He chooses, even out of the RCC. If not then wouldn't it seem terrible to damn those billions who have the wrong gospel, for it would be our fault for not letting them know of proper doctrines of salvation. Is God going to damn someone for our lack of getting the truth to them? Or is He going to damn those who deny His general revelation and then refuse to believe in Him. If they had believed in Him through general revelation, they would seek Him, and God would send someone to share the gospel. That is how I see this.

 

[pinoybaptist]

How sad that very few on this board, and anywhere else, can differentiate between the eternality of the salvation which was authored by Christ alone, and which respects no man's religion, theology, creed, or lack of these things, and a redemption based upon the will of God and of the richness of His mercy, and a salvation from dead works, false doctrines, and such like which is a result of the elect child of God's being born in a time world corrupted by Adam's sin.

The salvation of the elect child of God, born a sinner, and unregenerate by virtue of his being of the flesh of Adam, was undertaken by the Messiah without respect for the sinner's timely theology, creed, religion, catechism, statement of faith and confessions, or lack of all these.

This salvation was decreed in eternity past, and all who are beneficiaries of it were put IN CHRIST, accepted by God IN THE BELOVED, prior to and independent of ANYTHING except God's will for that individual, and His grace and mercy.

This is why Christ is the Messiah awaited by the true Israel, Zion if you will, for in His due time He will gather all under the Father, and this He did at Calvary, when He shed His blood, which covered and atoned for all the sins of all His people regardless of where they were in the chronology of salvation.

The deliverance from false doctrines of the child of God has no bearing at all to his eternal standing before God, because His eternal standing was secured by and secured in Christ ALONE, and not by his knowledge and adherence to Biblically sound doctrine.

Who may be bold enough to say that when Christ redeemed His people, He put preconditions on His redemption of them based on their religion ? Where in Scripture does it say that Christ redeemed anyone on the basis of their adherence to certain doctrines ?

These doctrines come AFTER redemption and after regeneration, and is designed to make the redeemed child of God aware of the errors of his ways that he may be able to repent and turn to the One who already redeemed him, that doing so He may be honored in the midst of His people in this time world, yet not all His people will be afforded the blessedness of knowing Him totally in this time world for not all His people can be reached and taught by those whom He calls into the ministry for the edifying and maturing of His saints whom He called into a church.

 

[billwald]

Which is why the Gospel only computes if regeneration precedes conversion. Conversion is the response to one's already existing regeneration (salvation).

 

[SolaSaint]

Amen brother :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Paul3144...

"While the RCC has big problems, I do think that they are saved."

A very small minority are saved. Probably "fringe" Catholics.

The hard core Catholics CANT be born of the Spirit because they tenaciously hold to damnable heresies.

They do believe that we are saved by God's grace.

Actually, no hard core commited Catholic believes we are saved by grace alone.(faith alone...the gospel)

They hold to a grace+works false gospel

You should check out the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification

I have never read it, but if it is sanctioned by the cult of Rome it will NOT proclaim the true saving gospel...justification by faith alone.

 

[Matt Black]

That's a rather odd view - why reject something before even reading it. Here's your chance: Joint Declaration. The main author from the Catholic side was someone called Joseph Ratzinger - I wonder what happened to him?

 

[Soulman]

I noticed that some of you posted some exerpts from the cahachisim concerbing the continued sacrifice of Christ and their theology not being completely of works.

Firt of all the continuing sacrifice of Christ is an abomination as christ stated :Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

To quote the sections of the catachisim touting grace is absurd. They do not understand grace. If its grace then what about purgatory, indulgences, pennance, confession to a man, rosaries, limbo, infant baptisim, and sacrifice of the mass?

The mass literall takes Christ nthrough transubstantiation and literally transforms the host and wine into the blood and body of Christ. It is an abomination, satanic and not of God! Wake up people. If you believe the doctrins of the RCC You will go to hell as you cannot believe their lies and the bible at the same time. The two theologies simply cannot co-exist as they are opposites!!

 

[Gold Dragon]

I noticed that some of you posted some exerpts from the cahachisim concerbing the continued sacrifice of Christ and their theology not being completely of works.

I was the one who quoted the Catechism.

To quote the sections of the catachisim touting grace is absurd. They do not understand grace. If its grace then what about purgatory, indulgences, pennance, confession to a man, rosaries, limbo, infant baptisim, and sacrifice of the mass?

You tell people to read the Catechism to see what Catholics believe and then when it doesn't say what you expect it to say, you redefine how they use the word grace? I think you should take your own advice and read what the Catechism says to find out what Catholics really believe as opposed to what you have been told they believe.

Firt of all the continuing sacrifice of Christ is an abomination as christ stated :Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

So you acknowledge that Catholics believe in a continuing sacrifice instead of a re-sacrifice. Thank you. All I ask is that you challenge Catholics for what they believe instead of making false accusations about things they do not believe. Feel free to challenge them on that. I do not believe that Communion/Eucharist is a continuation of Christ's sacrifice either.

The mass literall takes Christ nthrough transubstantiation and literally transforms the host and wine into the blood and body of Christ. It is an abomination, satanic and not of God! Wake up people. If you believe the doctrins of the RCC You will go to hell as you cannot believe their lies and the bible at the same time. The two theologies simply cannot co-exist as they are opposites!!

While I obviously do not believe in transubstantiation, I find that the Catholic interpretation of John 6 (their primary text to defend transubstantiation) is something that is interesting to consider. I enjoy reading John 6 as a preparation for receiving the elements of communion as opposed to the usual 1 Corinthians 11 passage and find that it adds a richness to communion that I would otherwise not have.

NIV: John 6:48-58

I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Yes, we interpret this passage symbolically and Catholics interpret it more literally. I do not call that an abomination but a difference in hermeneutics. Either way, it is a beautiful and rich image painted by our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

So you are speaking for GOD now!

Yes, I am proclaiming what God has said.

Then we should see very soon that list those cardinal doctrines that ONE MUST BELIEVE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED!

Did you read my post?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Well since you know my friends better than, and seem happy to question their character, I'll let you judge them.

Hey, you're the one who told me that your friends get up in front of their Catholic church and affirm Catholic doctrine, even though they don't really believe it.

So we must be able to doctrinally qualify in order to receive God's grace?

Addressed this already.

Show me where, in the NT, someone must be able to fill out the appropriate theological questionaire for the Holy Spirit to come into their live.

Show me where in the NT we're told that someone can deny the Biblical doctrine of justification and still be saved.

Also, if I don't believe certain "core doctrines" and am saved, will I lose my salvation?

No. If you deny the Biblical doctrine of justification, you weren't saved in the first place.

Oh I completely disagree with this. Tetzel was pretty well established in the Roman Catholic Church. The practices of indulgences and papal infallibility were also well established.

So, you disagree with me when I say that there was political corruption and heretical doctrine in the church, and your reasoning for disagreeing with me is that there was political corruption and heretical doctrines in the church? Well, I certainly can't argue with that logic.

So what do we do with the millions and millions of faithful Christians who happened to live in times before Baptists existed?

Are you saying that no one was saved before Baptists?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Sure thing, so am I.

Well, that isn't what you said. Are you now claiming that someone can deny the Biblical doctrine of justification and be saved?

Well show me in the New Testament where salvation happens only when a person can give a point by point doctrinal outline of their understanding of justification.

Show me, seriously. It isn't there.

Of course it's not there. And I never said it was. Honestly, if you have to resort to straw man arguments and putting words in my mouth, please let me know now so I can ignore you.

You don't need to know that the Baptist view of justification is the imputed nature of Christ's righteousness that provides, in a punctiliar act, the grace of God in the life of someone who has confessed and believed Jesus Christ.

Again, we're not talking about knowing or understanding Biblical doctrine. We're talking about rejecting Biblical doctrine.

To be saved, according to the New Testament, you must have faith in Jesus Christ and confess Him as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. That is it.

Yep. And you also have to trust in Him ONLY for your salvation.

 

[Johnv]

Are Catholics saved or even christians?

Any person of any denomination is saved when then accept Christ's gift of salvation. When we get to Heaven, some of us are going to be surprised to see more Catholics than we thought would be there. We might also be sprusied to see fewer Baptists than we thought.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Are Catholics saved or even christians?

Any person of any denomination is saved when then accept Christ's gift of salvation. When we get to Heaven, some of us are going to be surprised to see more Catholics than we thought would be there. We might also be sprusied to see fewer Baptists than we thought.

The issue isn't Baptists vs Catholics, but whether or not one can reject the Biblical doctrine of justification and still be saved.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, Soulman, I started to read your post and began to take it seriously until your third post. I'm going to lay my cards on the table first so that you understand where I'm coming from and then I will talk about the subjects you brought up. First I was raised Catholic. I left the Catholic Church at 15 because of the Christian example of missionaries and I didn't find I could grow in the study of scriptures if I remained Catholic. since then. I've been to university. Minored in bible and theology (at protestant universities - Lee Universtity because I wanted to learn about what pentecostals taught and then - Eastern University an American Baptist University in Philadelphia). I currently attend a Southern Baptist Church. So that's me. However, since I was raised Catholic my family in most part is Catholic. Not all christian (yes I make that distinction) and some are. My father being my bigest sounding board against which I argue theology. He has a Jesuit Univeristy Education and is most stimilating in argument. Because of our many arguments I know a bit about Catholic Doctrine and beliefs. Not everything mind you but enough to know when I see nonsense and when I don't. I also personally enjoy Studying history. And though I have disagreements with Catholicism I find myself often in a position to try to clear somethings up that are misunderstood and largely just a regurgitation of propaganda. I would like to do that here. So to your post.

You basically argue that if a Catholic becomes "Born Again" that the natural inclination for that person is that a desire to learn scripture will cause them to seek to know about Jesus and forego participation in the Catholic Church. Certainly on a general basis I must agree with you because this is how my experience has led me. But then you go a step further and say that in no way can a real christian stay in the Catholic Church because it doesn't preach the gospel of Christ and in fact in antithesis to the Christian faith. Unfortunately, my experience of my family indicates that this isn't necissarily so either. However I want to key in on what you say is the gospel.
These are your comments: you quote Paul from the book of Galatians

Ga 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

My question to you then is what is the Gospel Paul and the apostles preached? In fact what is the Gospel Christ preached? Especially considering your next point

All that being said, we have to ask: Does the catholic church preach the gospel of Jesus Christ as outlined in the bible? The answer is clearly no. They teach a gospel of works and an unbloody mass that is an abomination to the true gospel of Christ. Hence according to scripture those that teach it and the catholic church itself is accursed.

So, what was the Gospel preached by all in the NT? Lets look starting with John the Baptist in Luke Chapter 3

during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

and he prophesied that

"I baptize you with[c] water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 17His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Clearly an indicator of cleaning house through repentance and baptism. Jesus introduced himself this way when he began his ministry

16He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
19to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."[e]

20Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, 21and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

He fulfills Isaiah. God Annointed him - He is the messiah. then to preach good news to the poor - what is that good news to the poor? - most likely acceptance by God because Jewish culture seemed to indicate if you were succesful you were blessed by God if not you were not. This theme repeated in the beatitudes. Recovery of site to the blind - obvious; and Release of the oppressed - an indicator of man's subjection to sin and comparison to the world's powers (empires) lording over God's people. and finally to proclaim the Year of the Lord's favor - a referrance to the year of Jubilee when everything goes back to how it was before and depts cancelled.
Not each of these things are the symptoms or the results of the Gospel - the Good news. So what was the Gospel that Jesus commanded his apostles to teach? Well this is what they taught in Acts

19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus

. and again

They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead.

and again

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Also Matthew 28

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

So the Gospel is non other than to repent and to be baptised because Jesus is the annointed one who was given to us and he has risen from the dead even as we will be. This is the Gospel that Jesus taught his disciples to preach. Repent. Be baptised. Be made right with God through Jesus Christ. So your first contention is that the Catholics do not support this gospel. Yet having known them I disagree with you. Yet this is the gospel preached by Paul as well. Paul in Galatians then must mean that a gospel that doesnt meet up with these requirements of 1) repenting 2) be baptised 3) doing what Jesus taught 4) believing in the resurrection 5) believing in Jesus. since early Christian communities were centered in Jewish communities the danger in Galatia was that these people would attempt to find satisfaction in Torah not in Jesus. The Catholic Church does not teach Torah alone saves.

 

[Johnv]

The issue isn't Baptists vs Catholics, but whether or not one can reject the Biblical doctrine of justification and still be saved.

Doctrine schmoctrine. We can't even agree here whetner the biblical doctrine of justification is calvinistic or arminian in nature. If one allows Christ to pay for their sins, they're saved. There are lots of people who are saved who have incredibly lousy doctrine.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Doctrine schmoctrine.

Sadly, this view is even seeping into Baptist churches.

We can't even agree here whetner the biblical doctrine of justification is calvinistic or arminian in nature.

Show me one person here who doesn't believe in the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, or in the fact that Christ and His vicarious atonement on the cross is the only avenue of salvation for sinners.

If one allows Christ to pay for their sins, they're saved.

And if one believes that they're saved by their works? Are they saved? How about someone who believes that Christ's atonement wasn't sufficient to pay for their sins? Are they saved? Historically and Biblically, the answer is "no".

There are lots of people who are saved who have incredibly lousy doctrine.

Agreed. However, it's one thing to be saved and not have a sound understanding of doctrine. It's quite another to be presented with sound Biblical doctrine and reject it.

 

[Johnv]

Sadly, this view is even seeping into Baptist churches.

Are you referring to the same Baptist churches that don't even take the Baptist Distinctives seriously? It's unfortunately a matter of Baptist history of having sharp disagreements on doctrine. The Calvinism/Arminian debate is a prime example, and that debate is central to the doctrine of justification. So unless you're willing to accuse anyone who is not a hypercalvinist of not being saved, the question of " can you not believe in the Biblical doctrine of justification and still be saved" is a loaded question.

Show me one person here who doesn't believe in the sufficiency of Christ's atonement, or in the fact that Christ and His vicarious atonement on the cross is the only avenue of salvation for sinners.

You presume that a Catholic by definition doesn't believe that. There are a lot of Catholics here. I don't presume to judge their salvation. You do. Good luck with that.

And if one believes that they're saved by their works?

There's a difference between not believing in salvation by faith alone, and believing a person is saved by works. Any catholic on this board will tell you they don't believe that works save. You seen to not understand that.

Agreed. However, it's one thing to be saved and not have a sound understanding of doctrine. It's quite another to be presented with sound Biblical doctrine and reject it.

If I had a dollar for every time I was accused of having rejected "sound biblical doctrine" I'd be a rich man. Yet my salvation is secure.

 

[lori4dogs]

Respectfully, you should check out their catachisim. They re-sacrifice our Lord at every mass and although may say some of the right things their underlying doctrine on salvation is one completely made up of works. Oh ya! They have their problems all right!

Don't get me wrong. I love the catholics and welcome any opportunity to witness to them. But Catholicisim itself is the cesspool of hell and anyone that falls prey to it's doctrins will end up there.

Before anyone freaks out as to what I just said, take a catachisim and study it. Find out what you are defending before you ignorantly defend Satans church.

I couldn't comment on this when it was in 'Baptist Only' forum. However, I have said over and over in this forum that 'Catholics do not re-sacrifice Jesus at every mass'. This is a fallacy that many Baptist believe. And since you apparently have a copy of the Catechism, can you tell me where it says we re-sacrifice Jesus at every mass. I always thought we re-present Him and that the Catholic Church teaches that on Calvary He made 'one oblation of Himself ONCE offered, a full perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world'.

I was a born again Baptist, now I'm a born again Catholic.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You presume that a Catholic by definition doesn't believe that. There are a lot of Catholics here.

A Catholic, by definition, affirms Catholic doctrine, which includes salvation by works and the insufficiency of Christ's atonement.

I don't presume to judge their salvation. You do. Good luck with that.

No, I never judged the salvation of any individual but your strawman is duly noted.

There's a difference between not believing in salvation by faith alone, and believing a person is saved by works. Any catholic on this board will tell you they don't believe that works save.

I agree. They will tell us that. And then they will turn right around and engage in Catholic rituals for their salvation.

Simple question, John: does Catholicism or does Catholicism not teach that the purpose of Purgatory is for the individual sinner to expiate his own sin?

If I had a dollar for every time I was accused of having rejected "sound biblical doctrine" I'd be a rich man. Yet my salvation is secure.

And yet, you have such contempt for sound doctrine.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Well, Soulman, I started to read your post and began to take it seriously until your third post. I'm going to lay my cards on the table first so that you understand where I'm coming from and then I will talk about the subjects you brought up. First I was raised Catholic. I left the Catholic Church at 15 because of the Christian example of missionaries and I didn't find I could grow in the study of scriptures if I remained Catholic. since then. I've been to university. Minored in bible and theology (at protestant universities - Lee Universtity because I wanted to learn about what pentecostals taught and then - Eastern University an American Baptist University in Philadelphia). I currently attend a Southern Baptist Church. So that's me. However, since I was raised Catholic my family in most part is Catholic. Not all christian (yes I make that distinction) and some are. My father being my bigest sounding board against which I argue theology. He has a Jesuit Univeristy Education and is most stimilating in argument. Because of our many arguments I know a bit about Catholic Doctrine and beliefs. Not everything mind you but enough to know when I see nonsense and when I don't. I also personally enjoy Studying history. And though I have disagreements with Catholicism I find myself often in a position to try to clear somethings up that are misunderstood and largely just a regurgitation of propaganda. I would like to do that here. So to your post.

You basically argue that if a Catholic becomes "Born Again" that the natural inclination for that person is that a desire to learn scripture will cause them to seek to know about Jesus and forego participation in the Catholic Church. Certainly on a general basis I must agree with you because this is how my experience has led me. But then you go a step further and say that in no way can a real christian stay in the Catholic Church because it doesn't preach the gospel of Christ and in fact in antithesis to the Christian faith. Unfortunately, my experience of my family indicates that this isn't necissarily so either. However I want to key in on what you say is the gospel.
These are your comments: you quote Paul from the book of Galatians My question to you then is what is the Gospel Paul and the apostles preached? In fact what is the Gospel Christ preached? Especially considering your next point So, what was the Gospel preached by all in the NT? Lets look starting with John the Baptist in Luke Chapter 3 and he prophesied that Clearly an indicator of cleaning house through repentance and baptism. Jesus introduced himself this way when he began his ministry
He fulfills Isaiah. God Annointed him - He is the messiah. then to preach good news to the poor - what is that good news to the poor? - most likely acceptance by God because Jewish culture seemed to indicate if you were succesful you were blessed by God if not you were not. This theme repeated in the beatitudes. Recovery of site to the blind - obvious; and Release of the oppressed - an indicator of man's subjection to sin and comparison to the world's powers (empires) lording over God's people. and finally to proclaim the Year of the Lord's favor - a referrance to the year of Jubilee when everything goes back to how it was before and depts cancelled.
Not each of these things are the symptoms or the results of the Gospel - the Good news. So what was the Gospel that Jesus commanded his apostles to teach? Well this is what they taught in Acts . and again and again Also Matthew 28 So the Gospel is non other than to repent and to be baptised because Jesus is the annointed one who was given to us and he has risen from the dead even as we will be. This is the Gospel that Jesus taught his disciples to preach. Repent. Be baptised. Be made right with God through Jesus Christ. So your first contention is that the Catholics do not support this gospel. Yet having known them I disagree with you. Yet this is the gospel preached by Paul as well. Paul in Galatians then must mean that a gospel that doesnt meet up with these requirements of 1) repenting 2) be baptised 3) doing what Jesus taught 4) believing in the resurrection 5) believing in Jesus. since early Christian communities were centered in Jewish communities the danger in Galatia was that these people would attempt to find satisfaction in Torah not in Jesus. The Catholic Church does not teach Torah alone saves.

Also I would like to point out another thing that you stated at the begining of the thread

Respectfully, you should check out their catachisim. They re-sacrifice our Lord at every mass and although may say some of the right things their underlying doctrine on salvation is one completely made up of works

You make two incorrect statements here which I find humorous. 1) Check out their Catachism. I have and I note that this statement here 2) resacrificing out Lord at every mass is incorrect. They are upholding that same sacrifice that Jesus made 2,000 years ago. Like a broadcast signal that spreads out. Its the same signal not another broadcast so to speak. And as far as a works based religion you missed this part of the Catachism

Faith is man's response to God, who reveals himself and gives himself to man, at the same time bringing man a superabundant light as he searches for the ultimate meaning of his life... By revealing himself God wishes to make them capable of responding to him, and of knowing him and of loving him far beyond their own natural capacity...All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54 ...By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God.2 With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation... Faith is a gift of God, a supernatural virtue infused by him. "Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and 'makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.'"25

So what has the class learned today?