Are musical styles amoral? Round 2.

[Jordan Kurecki]

A related story about how God might use discordant music
by J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion creation story

Rob

this lost me. i dont understand the point.

 

[Don]

One cannot speak of music as if one can find it growing on trees, or randomly lying on the ground somewhere.

Music is communication. It is an intelligent act, not an object. It doesn't exist without a hearer, whether that hearer is the musician himself or someone else.

Exactly my point.

But the Scriptures have many things to say about the manner and character of our communication.

So, my question to you would be, is there a style of music today that you would say is antithetical to a Christian character and demeanor?

You just asked me about my personal preferences. If I answer that question, then I'm condemning something that another finds edifying.

You just asked me to make the list of what's acceptable communication, and what's not.

Tell you what: You don't like the music I'm listening to, tell me, and I won't play it around you.

 

[Don]

'Cause if you really want me to answer that question, my list is gonna start with anything that has a steel guitar in it....

 

[Aaron]

Let me rephrase the question. Is there a style of music you would call "excessive" or "riotous?" (Both are biblical terms btw.)

 

[Don]

Let me rephrase the question. Is there a style of music you would call "excessive" or "riotous?" (Both are biblical terms btw.)

Just as there are riotous eaters and excessive drinkers? (both biblical references, by the way)

But it isn't the food that is riotous, or the wine that is excessive.

If I answer your question, are you willing to abide by that answer and never listen to any music that *I* have determined is riotous or excessive?

 

[JonC]

Yes music is used to convey a message, and it does so without words, don't believe me? go watch an old black and white movie, notice when they use different types of music to develop feelings of humor, sadness,etc... and all WITHOUT WORDS.

Rock Music and Ragtime were mainly a genre produced to promote carnality, the musical style itself was created and without the words it still sends a message of carnality, The original artists that pioneered these genres were using it for carnality and there's a reason why it fits so well with carnal wicked lyrics, because that's what the style was originally intended for, you cannot divorce the carnal message it sends with just the music, you can try and deny that the music itself sends a carnal message all you want, but that does change the reality that it does. The music itself elicit can elicit darker urges without the words. I use to do drugs, and I listened to music without words, but let me tell you the message was plain and clear, for example electronic dance music, sends a message of sex and drug highs. I find it quite interesting that you can hardly find a music with immoral lyrics played to a style like found in John Newtons Amazing Grace, yet Rock Music, and Ragtime is filled this, though not exclusively.

The bible says Can two walk together except they be agreed, Just because you slap John 3:16 on a bottle of alcohol, that does not change the nature of alcohol, Try putting John 3:16 on a bag of cocaine and then tell me that it's not carnal anymore.. yet you seem to think this works, you seem to ignore the fact that music has a nature WITHOUT the lyrics. Music manipulates emotions, there is certain types of music that cause feelings of sadness, fear, courage, and also LUST, this can all be done without words. Are you really going to sit here and try and tell me you REALLY believe music is amoral and neutral?

I don't care what all these people say on the Baptist Board and I don't care about all these arguments you come up with, you strain at gnats and swallow camels, repent of this wicked flesh feeding position you have on music, you people defend your music out of completely selfish desires, it's all about having your tastes and what pleases you, that's why people always get so defensive when it comes to music, I highly doubt you really care about listening to music that reflects the character of God and brings him glory when you sit here and try to defend the wicked idea that all music is amoral, it's all just an attempt for you to defend self pleasure. Let's be honest, if you really cared about the Lord, even if I was wrong about this music, you would still put it away for the sake of unity and not offending your brother, but CCM people don't do this, it's all about self and what YOU want, the fact that the CCM crowd gets so defensive and that they so mock and jeer at the conservatives on this side of the issue says a lot about the spirit they have. It's so clear as day that this is all about having the leeks and the onions of Egypt while trying to feel like your serving the Lord. It's all about worshiping the idols of this world under the pretense of it being done for Jesus.

This Philosophy makes me sick because I believe it is a horribly disgrace to the Lord Jesus Christ, My Savior and his holiness is not reflected by wicked Rock Music, Hip Hop and other genres of music that have come straight out of the pits of hell.

You can come up with fancy argument all you want, But deep down inside if you ponder your heart and pray in earnest asking the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to you about this,search the scriptures, and do a study on the history and effects of music, I am convinced you will end up on my side of the argument.

If I offend you with this post, it means your convicted and need to repent.

Jordan...where do you draw the line? I mentioned in another post that one of my favorite hymns is "How Great Thou Art." But the music to that hymn was at one time contemporary (as we know it, it was set to Swedish Folk music). Is Swedish Folk music therefore sacred....or is it simply because we don't listen to that type of music here? If so, then was "How Great Thou Art?" heresy to the Swedes? Is rock sacred to cultures not exposed to the genre? Or are you opposed to any type of melody? Please describe what is music acceptable to God so that we can know exactly what you are speaking of.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Jordan...where do you draw the line? I mentioned in another post that one of my favorite hymns is "How Great Thou Art." But the music to that hymn was at one time contemporary (as we know it, it was set to Swedish Folk music). Is Swedish Folk music therefore sacred....or is it simply because we don't listen to that type of music here? If so, then was "How Great Thou Art?" heresy to the Swedes? Is rock sacred to cultures not exposed to the genre? Or are you opposed to any type of melody? Please describe what is music acceptable to God so that we can know exactly what you are speaking of.

How great thou art does not have music with a sensual rhythmic technique.

the overemphasis of rhythym in music is carnal.

the bible says to make melody in your heart to the Lord, not Rhythm.

I draw my lines mainly on what is driving the song, if it's melody than I will accept it, if it's rhythm, whether that's a drum set, or a piano I will reject it.

I love melody very much.

There are about 3 different references to making melody to God in singing, God has placed the emphasis on melody in his word.

If you do a study on development of rhythmic techniques, you will find that in the early 1900's the heavy driving rhythms of modern rock music are a development from Ragtime,Blues, and Swing, all genres that were highly associated with carnality and rebellion, the types of rhythm drove the carnality and fit quite well with the loose living.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

a Swedish folk style such as How great thou art reflects the character of God with it's emphasis on melody, Rock Music style does not.

The sounds of the musical styles reflect two very different philosophies.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I really do wonder what the percentage of Rock Music/Hip-Hop/Metal songs there are that contain worldly ungodly lyrics compared to what percentage of style contained in our Baptist Hymn books that have ungodly lyrics...

in fact I'm willing to bet that there are little to no ungodly songs written with the musical style of our hymns... I wonder why that is?

"Can two walk together except they be agreed" -Amos 3:3

Now I believe the existence of Rock/Hip Hop that has Godly lyrics is simply due to Carnal Christians who are double minded.

 

[Don]

Country-western, anyone?

 

[Aaron]

Just as there are riotous eaters and excessive drinkers?

Eating and drinking are acts. So is music, like speech.

But it isn't the food that is riotous, or the wine that is excessive.

Food and wine are objects. Music is not an object. Music is an act.

If I answer your question. . .

Just answer the question.

 

[Bro. James]

How about: Congolese boombox gospel

We seem to have difficulty with what "making a joyful noise unto The Lord" might mean. Some sure spend a lot on choirs in the tabernacle accompanied by grandiose instrumentation.

Whatever it takes to get a little warm and fuzzy.

Church is not entertainment.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Don]

Eating and drinking are acts. So is music, like speech.

Food and wine are objects. Music is not an object. Music is an act.

Au contraire, my friend. Music is the result of action and intent.

Just answer the question.

Nope. Not until you answer the conditions.

 

[JonC]

What if you set a hymn to polka?

 

[Aaron]

Au contraire, my friend. Music is the result of action and intent.

so is a hammer with this one significant difference: lay a hammer down and walk away and it's still there. Not so with music. Music is, more accurately, interaction. Human interaction. We aren't talking about the dots on sheets of paper, neither the holes in a cd nor the alignment of dipoles on magnetic media. When one speaks of music he is speaking of the the act of communication.

Nope. Not until you answer the conditions.

you're copping out.

 

[Don]

so is a hammer with this one significant difference: lay a hammer down and walk away and it's still there. Not so with music. Music is, more accurately, interaction. Human interaction. We aren't talking about the dots on sheets of paper, neither the holes in a cd nor the alignment of dipoles on magnetic media. When one speaks of music he is speaking of the the act of communication.

You forget: music is nothing without the instrument. Whether it be lips that have to be used, or a drum that must be beat, or a trumpet that must be blown: without the instrument, and the person using it, the notes do not exist.

you're copping out.

Hardly. You're trying to trap me into a specific area, and I refuse to be your pharisee telling you what's good and what's evil.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

I would like to apologize for accusing those of having a music position that is Amoral as being fleshly and carnal.

I would like to modify what I said.

If you hold to a position that you believe music is amoral and that genres like Christian Rock/Hip-Hop can be used to bring honor and glory to God and are fit for using to worship God, then either :

1. You need to grow in the area of music and do some honest research and prayer about music, with the intention that no matter what you will do God's will in the area of music, even if that means turning from music that you find pleasing.

2. You are willingly ignorant and need to repent of being willingly ignorant because you are afraid of what you will find out about music.

3. You are carnal and choose to embrace the arguments for music being without morals simply out of a desire to please self and then you mask it as pleasing God, it may be that you are not saved or that you are out of fellowship with God. If this is you then you must repent.

Those who accept and embrace CCM and Christian Rap,etc.. fall underneath one of those 3 categories.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

You forget: music is nothing without the instrument. Whether it be lips that have to be used, or a drum that must be beat, or a trumpet that must be blown: without the instrument, and the person using it, the notes do not exist.

The musical style and intentions of the original artists who shaped the style exists long after the original artists are gone.

if a lost person develops a musical style that is used to communicate a message of carnality, this carnality is still retained in the actually sound without the lyrics.

if another person comes along and uses this same style, it will still retain it's original carnal sound and the carnal effects of it, regardless of what words are added to it.

the style communicates a message.

 

[Don]

The musical style and intentions of the original artists who shaped the style exists long after the original artists are gone.

And are meaningless and worthless without someone acting upon them -- just like words.

if a lost person develops a musical style that is used to communicate a message of carnality, this carnality is still retained in the actually sound without the lyrics.

if another person comes along and uses this same style, it will still retain it's original carnal sound and the carnal effects of it, regardless of what words are added to it.

the style communicates a message.

Then by all means, tell us what music we should only be listening to.

 

[sag38]

I would like to apologize for accusing those of having a music position that is Amoral as being fleshly and carnal.

I would like to modify what I said.

If you hold to a position that you believe music is amoral and that genres like Christian Rock/Hip-Hop can be used to bring honor and glory to God and are fit for using to worship God, then either :

1. You need to grow in the area of music and do some honest research and prayer about music, with the intention that no matter what you will do God's will in the area of music, even if that means turning from music that you find pleasing.

2. You are willingly ignorant and need to repent of being willingly ignorant because you are afraid of what you will find out about music.

3. You are carnal and choose to embrace the arguments for music being without morals simply out of a desire to please self and then you mask it as pleasing God, it may be that you are not saved or that you are out of fellowship with God. If this is you then you must repent.

Those who accept and embrace CCM and Christian Rap,etc.. fall underneath one of those 3 categories.

First you apologize and basically do the same thing again, ie. "You are carnal," "You are willingly ignorant and need to repent,..."you need to grow." Maybe it is you who needs to take a hard long look in the mirror.