Are our churches really New Testament Churches...

[IFB Mole]

Arrow man,

I agree BUT when a church files for incorporation with the Sec of State AND gets their tax # the state is now sovereign over BOTH the service and administration of the church AND they REQUIRE the church to collect and remit taxes on its behalf.

They do and can DEMAND that certian issues are off limits to the pastor. Imagine that, because the church has applied for a "tax subsidy" (by Supreme Court ruling) via a 501C3 filing the state now controls what can and can not be preached. LEGALLY a pastor of a 501C3 "church" can not call homosexuality depravity or a sin. They CAN NOT preach we are to obey God rather than Caesar (government) they CAN NOT advocate spanking kids, they CAN NOT preach against premartial fornication or shacking up as sin.

I tell you if some radical homosexuals or left wing libs tape recorded some IFB messages and sent them into the IRS - bye bye tax exemption or the preacher needs to scale back his preaching so he doesn't jeopordize their precious tax-exemption by going against "over riding public policy".

With churches actually putting messages on the internet to be heard over and over the IRS can have a FIELD day as church after church violates the IRS rules of a 501C3 "church".

More and more churches are being VERY CAREFUL not to preach against sins that may cause them to cross the IRS line. In times past preachers would preach with freedom now since they are "professionals" and know no other skill and they NEED their tax subsidy to survive (so they think) they will bow to the god of Washington D.C. and the IRS.

We wonder why there is no Revival? Churches are many times run as a BUSINESS. My goodness most large churches have that biblical position we find in the Epistles called a BUSINESS MANAGER.

 

[shannonL]

IFB Mole,

I just love that nickname. Got to be the coolest
one on the BB. It just makes me chuckle.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:


Third, Tax deductible offerings SHOULD NOT be the reason we give, we give IN SPITE of the "tax deduction". Good you mentioned that because the Supreme Court ruled that the tax dedcutible gifts amount to a tax subsidy and if a church gets a tax subsidy there are strings attached and those strings are nothing short of what THEY say YOU must do. How much intrusion and control is TOO MUCH???

People do give on the basis of how much they can afford. Suppose a person could afford to give $1000 and was in a 50% tax bracket then he could afford to give $2000 because of a tax break. If you were the pastor of a church would you rather have the church realize $2000 or $1000 with the tax break making the difference?

How would you feel if a person filed their taxes and then a year or more later was told by the IRS that the tax deducation the person took was not permissible? Then when the IRS aqudited the person they were charged a penalty of say 12% penalty fee because they underpaid the amount of taxes owed?

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:

More and more churches are being VERY CAREFUL not to preach against sins that may cause them to cross the IRS line. In times past preachers would preach with freedom now since they are "professionals" and know no other skill and they NEED their tax subsidy to survive (so they think) they will bow to the god of Washington D.C. and the IRS.

We wonder why there is no Revival? Churches are many times run as a BUSINESS. My goodness most large churches have that biblical position we find in the Epistles called a BUSINESS MANAGER.

I have never been dismissed from a church by the IRS or had them approach me because I preached against sin. It has always been the disobedient in the church. In every case it was when God was working and people were being discipled that the disobedienrt leadership rose up.

Perhaps what you say is right about a business because most businesses fail within two years.

A lot of churches should have open books like most successful businesses which have their books audited each year.

When I was in a larger church I suggested that the church have its books audited. The deacons about had a cow. Later the IRS came in and my personal books were right but the chruch was not. I found the churches I pastored to be rather ignorant about money matters and what the IRS required should they audit our books. One of them fell under suspicion by the members and actions of the church treasurer. That is not something I would wish on anybody. Immediately I called in a CPA I knew to get our books straight. It was smooth from that point on. For awhile it was tense though because people suspected the treasurer of stealing which we found out later was not true but the deposits were not getting deposited in a timely manner. We also knew the church treasurer was having some tough times financially.

 

[Johnv]

IFB Mole, you are falsely presuming that just because a church incorporates, it is then created by the state, a creature of the state, and derives its power from the state. That assumption is inhierently false.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Aren't most of these regulations designed to keep non-church organizations from masquerading as churches and receiving tax benefits of churches?

The NC Brethren of the Wolfpack, a noble cause but not a church.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Seriously, it seems to me that the restrictions placed on a church are:

1) Not supporting a political party or candidate from the pulpit. I don't believe churches should be in this business.

2) Not speaking out against homosexuals. This is a grey area and I agree that a pastor should have the right to do this if they feel led to do so.

I've never heard about not allowing advocating spanking children. Is this really happening? I've also never heard about not allowing a church to speak out against adultery or preaching that our greater allegiance is to God and not to our nation, unless you are talking about advocating overthrow of the government.

 

[rsr]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
LEGALLY a pastor of a 501C3 "church" can not call homosexuality depravity or a sin. They CAN NOT preach we are to obey God rather than Caesar (government) they CAN NOT advocate spanking kids, they CAN NOT preach against premartial fornication or shacking up as sin.

Any examples you know of? I don't think so.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
They do and can DEMAND that certian issues are off limits to the pastor. Imagine that, because the church has applied for a "tax subsidy" (by Supreme Court ruling) via a 501C3 filing the state now controls what can and can not be preached. LEGALLY a pastor of a 501C3 "church" can not call homosexuality depravity or a sin. They CAN NOT preach we are to obey God rather than Caesar (government) they CAN NOT advocate spanking kids, they CAN NOT preach against premartial fornication or shacking up as sin.

Where did you find such information? I have never had any trouble preaching those things in a chruch except when leaders get mad at me for preaching the Bible.

Apparently you have never preached in a service with police officers and government workers present.

 

[Psalm 100]

I agree in concept with the idea that there should be no state "licensing" of churches. In biblical times, there was no organized church, just a bunch of people who met regularly to teach and worship. As individuals, they had to pay the government, but not as a church.

When churches start to look at their tax exempt status vs. their message, then they have given power to the government over them. The church has historically preached against reigning governments and the morals they proscribe.

I personally think that church organizations that collect tithes and offerings be automatically exempt from taxation, without all those forms, and instead be accountable financially (only) to an organization like ECFA(?) that is an outside, non governmental agency.

 

[IFB Mole]

I must say I should be astonished at the posts here, but I'm not since most responses here are no different than at any other church. I presupposed posters here were a bit more knowledgeable about this stuff.

gb93433, you play right into the tax-deduction subsidy web. Do you understand that tax-deductible contributions are a tax-subsidy OF THE LORDS CHURCH? Doesn't that concern you? This is classic what you said "I found the churches I pastored to be rather ignorant about money matters and what the IRS required should they audit our books" The IRS has authority to audit the books of the LORDS Church? You actually believe that?? If you register with the IRS then you GIVE them that authority, but if you follow Scripture, THEY DON'T!! Having books prepared by experienced people either inside or outside the church is good stewardship, but the IRS audit and rules and regulations (control) - NO WAY!!

ANY hand outs (subsidies) from the government comes with conditions and those conditions are strict compliance to the IRS codes, WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE!!

Now as to preaching against "socially acceptable sins" like homosexuality, fornication, abortion, corporal punishment for discipline of children, etc. etc. Sure, right now all is fine, preach away. But mark my words in this information age and messages on the internet, if a visible preacher riles up some depraved reprobate and they forward some messages to the IRS, LOOK OUT. The IRS will come a-knock'n and threaten revoking their tax-exemption IF they don't stop preaching against or about "overriding public policy". JUST WAIT AND SEE. Sure all is fine and dandy now.

As far as the IRS and government is concerned a church is considered LEGALLY FORMED when the corporate documents are filed at the Sec of State and they received their precious tax ID# as a 501C3 not for profit CORPORATION, regardless of what you believe JohnV. I am not assuming anything, corporations are an organization OF the state, it is birthed BY the state, controlled by the state and all powers it has are granted or allowed by the state - that is a FACT, not assumption or a presupposition, FACT.

Now straightandnarrow - you believe that ANY restrictions should be placed on the LORDS CHURCH by the government?? Do they have that right? NO!! In times past political campaigning was performed at the local churches and preachers had huge influences on people - as truly anointed men of God should. Now the IRS says "NO" or else we'll revoke that silver spoon that feeds you, that tax subsidy known as a not-for-profit CORPORATE status and tax deductible contributions.

rsr - preach against the depravity of society as evidenced by such sins as homosexuality, premarital fornication, abortion, internet porn, Muslim/Islamic terrorism and their false god of allah, the error of Judaism, government corruption that is in the newspaper, violence, profanity and sex in the music/TV/Hollywood industry, same sex marriage, prayer in school, creationism in schools that MY property taxes pay for etc. etc., I mean PREACH HARD about this from a Bible perspective, record it and send the CD to an IRS investigator and ask their opinion if such a message "violates" your "tax-exempt" status. See what they will say, I dare you, DO IT.

Christians in times past were jailed and tortured and killed for standing up to government and ecclesiastical intrusion (like the Inquisition) into the LORDS CHURCH. Today we welcome IRS rules and regulations and government controls with open arms.

Finally who really cares WHY the IRS and congress made up laws about not for profit organizations masquerading as a "church". The issue is Jesus commissioned HIS PEOPLE to establish local, visible churches, centuries before their ever was an IRS and incorporating of a church. Did this commission include seeking permission from someone OTHER than the LORD'S command?

Speaking of masquerading - seems the masquerading is being done not by the fakes but by those that THINK they are real churches but instead are simply “Christian” corporations masquerading as a church, fearing that they stay “legal” more than trying to be Biblical. I cringe when I hear a pastor say “legally we must do this and legally we can’t do that”. (in context of IRS statute)

Jesus is standing at the door and knocking wanting to again be the King of His local churches, but instead we say He can be as long as it doesn’t conflict with the IRS……….

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:

I must say I should be astonished at the posts here, but I'm not since most responses here are no different than at any other church. I presupposed posters here were a bit more knowledgeable about this stuff.

So was I, until I began to prepare for starting a church. The school where I wanted to meet require a million dollars in insurance and no insurance company would insure me without being a 501(c)(3). I also contacted an attorney who was one of the best in the state. So your idea sounds fine until reality hits.

gb93433, you play right into the tax-deduction subsidy web. Do you understand that tax-deductible contributions are a tax-subsidy OF THE LORDS CHURCH? Doesn't that concern you? This is classic what you said "I found the churches I pastored to be rather ignorant about money matters and what the IRS required should they audit our books" The IRS has authority to audit the books of the LORDS Church? You actually believe that?? If you register with the IRS then you GIVE them that authority, but if you follow Scripture, THEY DON'T!! Having books prepared by experienced people either inside or outside the church is good stewardship, but the IRS audit and rules and regulations (control) - NO WAY!!

Ever been involved in an IRS audit? I have three times. One time everything was fine. another time they owed me money. Another time I was told I owed about $5,000 and was shocked. I had a CPA friend do my taxes and he them a letter explaining what he did. They sent me a letter of apology. It was the church I was pastoring who made the mistakes not me. That was a church I pastored and told them they were doing their books wrong. They chose to go against me and keep on doing them the same way. They claim they got advice from the SBC. I again told them they were wrong. When I was audited the IRS found the church wrong. IRS audits are no fun. Ever been in a church that had money stolen. I have once. It is even worse than an IRS audit. "Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing."

ANY hand outs (subsidies) from the government comes with conditions and those conditions are strict compliance to the IRS codes, WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE!!

Now as to preaching against "socially acceptable sins" like homosexuality, fornication, abortion, corporal punishment for discipline of children, etc. etc. Sure, right now all is fine, preach away. But mark my words in this information age and messages on the internet, if a visible preacher riles up some depraved reprobate and they forward some messages to the IRS, LOOK OUT. The IRS will come a-knock'n and threaten revoking their tax-exemption IF they don't stop preaching against or about "overriding public policy". JUST WAIT AND SEE. Sure all is fine and dandy now.

Let them come, everyone of them. Maybe they will hear the gospel and get saved. I have had government workers and police officers as members in the churches I pastored. Recently my brother in law who became a Christian a few years ago is a retired police officer. He regularly shared with people as he pulled them over. He even had one pastor tell him God would get him if he gave him a ticket. So he gave the pastor a ticket and told the him God would get him if he ran over a child while speeding. I have had people threaten to sue me in the community because I knocked on their door with the intent to give them the gospel. Never been sued yet. They would have a hard because because of my credibility everywhere I go. Ever watch God silence folks and turn the table and work in your favor to protect you? I have. At the church I attend now we have a senator who attends regualrly and is involved in the church. Give us more just like him!!

As far as the IRS and government is concerned a church is considered LEGALLY FORMED when the corporate documents are filed at the Sec of State and they received their precious tax ID# as a 501C3 not for profit CORPORATION, regardless of what you believe JohnV. I am not assuming anything, corporations are an organization OF the state, it is birthed BY the state, controlled by the state and all powers it has are granted or allowed by the state - that is a FACT, not assumption or a presupposition, FACT.

That is not a FACT at all. A church is not required to be 510(c)(3) at all. That is the fact.

In times past political campaigning was performed at the local churches and preachers had huge influences on people - as truly anointed men of God should. Now the IRS says "NO" or else we'll revoke that silver spoon that feeds you, that tax subsidy known as a not-for-profit CORPORATE status and tax deductible contributions.

Sometimes check into why the Cooperative Program was started in the SBC long before the 501 stuff came along. It was because of money grubbers who spent a lot of time raising money of themselves. You may not know it, but some folds are very well off because they are good promoters and people will give lots of money to good promoters and slick talkers. What do you think would happen if the missionary speaking told the congregation that only ten percent of the people in the best evangelical churches can give reasons for their faith and almost none of the members are making disciples. What do you think would happen instead of the missionary asking for money he gave out a card that require the person be currently making at least one disciple before they give one penny to his ministry. What would happen in most churches if the missionary told the congregation that if they are not making disciples they are disobedient to Jesus’ command in Mt. 28:19,20.

Christians in times past were jailed and tortured and killed for standing up to government and ecclesiastical intrusion (like the Inquisition) into the LORDS CHURCH. Today we welcome IRS rules and regulations and government controls with open arms.

And you?I was given a lot of trouble at a major university about being a Christian who shared his faith openly. I could not get my master’s thesis proposal through because the members of my committee were Mormons. I was dismissed from a church that had grown 2.5 times in about 20 months with new believers because I would not waver on my preaching and teaching. Some of the deacons told me they were not even reading their Bible. I asked them why they were deacons because they were an example to the congregation. I told them that if they did not have time to read their Bible then they certainly did not have time to be a deacon and should consider doing the right thing. Hell came up to a head later.

Finally who really cares WHY the IRS and congress made up laws about not for profit organizations masquerading as a "church". The issue is Jesus commissioned HIS PEOPLE to establish local, visible churches, centuries before their ever was an IRS and incorporating of a church. Did this commission include seeking permission from someone OTHER than the LORD'S command?

I care because I saw a church lose everything it owned in an area loaded with paganism. Satan had his way. The church lost its building, sound equipment and everything else when it was sued by a local person in the town who was not a Christian nor a member of the church.

Speaking of masquerading - seems the masquerading is being done not by the fakes but by those that THINK they are real churches but instead are simply “Christian” corporations masquerading as a church, fearing that they stay “legal” more than trying to be Biblical. I cringe when I hear a pastor say “legally we must do this and legally we can’t do that”. (in context of IRS statute)

I don’t have a fear because I have been in business for myself for years. I have had to do business against the crooks. Some of them are teachers in all kinds of churches. A good fear helps to guidepeople and also keep them doing things the way they should be. Your assumption is that nothing will go wrong and everybody will always do the right things. Ask the church who had a pastor who embezzled about 600K in the church a few years ago. Ask the people who invested up to one million dollars in the BFA a few years ago http://www.rickross.com/groups/bfa.html

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
As far as the IRS and government is concerned a church is considered LEGALLY FORMED when the corporate documents are filed at the Sec of State and they received their precious tax ID# as a 501C3 not for profit CORPORATION, regardless of what you believe JohnV.

That's completely untrue. A house of worship that operates strictly as a house of worship is automatically tax exempt sans having to file out any paperwork.

Many churches file for a 501c3 to guarantee the tax exempt status of their non-house of worship operations. This is a wise and prudent thing to do.

 

[Johnv]

[

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
LEGALLY a pastor of a 501C3 "church" can not call homosexuality depravity or a sin.

Really? My pastor does that all the time, and has quite often. So do many. My pastor is a well known pastor, and to date, there has been no attempt by the govenment to yank the church's 501c3 status.

Jerry Falwell and D James Kennedy are widely known for their like stance against homosexuality. Can you cite any attempt by the government to yank their 501c3 status for their positions?

 

[buckster75]

Our pastor is not very well known but he has made similar statements on homosexuality.

 

[IFB Mole]

gb,

Very good response there indeed. I clearly made a mistake. I don't want readers to think that a church HAS TO incorporate - THEY DO NOT. IF you want IRS approval and RECOGNITION, then you do. Let me make that clear, I was not, sorry.

A CHURCH DOES NOT HAVE TO INCORPORATE.

Because they don't that's what ponders me as to why they do in the first place. Primarily because it "protects" them, they are told. Hog wash - The LORD protects HIS CHURCH, always has always will. It does help to work "within the system" if incorporated but not REQUIRED.

As to the IRS, they don't even know you exist UNLESS you apply for a 501C3 not for profit organization. If you never file, there is no notification to them, simple. Churches are AUTOMATICALLY tax-exempt (immune actually) whether or not you file for exemption via the 501C3. The IRS will CLAIM that for contributors to deduct their contributions you MUST file as a 501C3, NOT TRUE. Non 501C3 New Testament Churches simply give the contributors a record of their contributions, if they want to deduct them; they can, if not then don't.

One pastor I know established his church in a public community center and needed insurance and a bank account and to do that he needed that dreaded IRS # and to incorporate. So what he did is form a 501C3 called "Agape Baptist Ministries, Inc" (notice not a church) it is this entity that is used to interact with the world system. His church simply "rents" the building from "Agape Baptist Ministries" Members write checks to the his church, they endorse them over to the 501C3 corporation and they can be free from government intervention. All staff actually "work" for "Agape Baptist Ministries, Inc" not the church. It is more detailed than that, but the point is, is to establish TWO distinct and separate entities; a 501 C3 corporation and a New Testament Church.

I am not against 501c3 at all; it is when a CHURCH does that is where the problem is. It is best to establish one entity as the non-profit corporation and the church will use this separate but distinct entity to "conduct business".

As to IRS audits - I have before and no problem each time. If a church never files for 501C3 exemption there is no fear of the IRS because they don't even know you exist.

That church that got sued would being a 501C3 or not made any difference AT ALL?? Incorporating does not protect a church, since "piercing the corporate veil" is not difficult. Anyway should a church seek "protection" from Egypt (the world)? NO.

A church, a true New Testament Church can function totally free in the world today essentially unknown to the government if no APPLICATIONS are filed for anything. Form a separate 501C3 non-profit corporation for that. The 501C3 can conform to all the laws and rules as the Church remains free!!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
Very good response there indeed. I clearly made a mistake. I don't want readers to think that a church HAS TO incorporate - THEY DO NOT. IF you want IRS approval and RECOGNITION, then you do. Let me make that clear, I was not, sorry.

No, many incorporate to protect their activities that are not related to houses of worship. Many incorporate to permit their donors from writing their donations off on their taxes. Many incorporate so that the church can operate as an independent body from a specific person. There are many advantageous reasons to file for 501c3 incorporation, and few, if any, disadvantages.

 

[IFB Mole]

The IRS hasn't yanked any exemption yet because of preaching against homosexuality for example. BUT THEY WILL. Soon as the deviant sodomites invade more and more into all areas of life demanding equality and acceptance of their abhorant lifestyle, they will be attacking conservative Christian churches next.

How will they do that? By submitting preaching messages they got from church web sites or requesting them from the church directly. They will send the CD's to the IRS via the ACLU demanding that the IRS revoke their tax-exempt status or fine them or some other recompense to shut the mouths of conservative Christianity.

MOST of the comments made by the Falwells of this world are made OUTSIDE their churches as a PERSONAL belief - protected as free speech. It's when it is from the pulpit is where the problem will come from.

Just wait, you'll see. As the sodomites win their latest battle -same sex marriage - they will be going after ANOTHER American instutution, the conservative Christian churches, the last bastion of TRUTH against their depraved lifestyle.

They will put pressure on the IRS via the ACLU and others to SHUT DOWN or SHUT UP conservative churches. They can adopt children already, soon marriage all over the country will be legal, next will be to silence conservative churches.

I am not jumping on some homosexual band wagon because I think it is the worse and most vile sin or something, I am using homosexuality as the example here.

As long as a church is a 501C3 not for profit corporation the noose will be subtly closing more and more then soon they will be hung to death - death from PROCLAIMING THE TRUTH.

Just wait, you'll see pressure brought to bear - comply with the IRS and overriding public policy or else your tax exemption will be REVOKED.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
The IRS hasn't yanked any exemption yet because of preaching against homosexuality for example. BUT THEY WILL.

Really? They haven't yet yanked the Ku Klux Klan's tax exempt status, and they're preached far worse. Your statement is nothing but hot air, and does nothing for your credibility on this issue.

MOST of the comments made by the Falwells of this world are made OUTSIDE their churches as a PERSONAL belief - protected as free speech. It's when it is from the pulpit is where the problem will come from.

I guess you've never heard any of Falwell's messages on the Old Time Gospel Hour. Most of Kennedy's statements on the topic are straight from the pulpit, with no danger of what you're claiming.

Just wait, you'll see pressure brought to bear - comply with the IRS and overriding public policy or else your tax exemption will be REVOKED.

I'll be happy to wait. I doubt you'll be on the board long enough for me to say I told you so.

 

[IFB Mole]

JohnV,

Advantages to 501C3?? You're smoking crack man.

So they incorporate that they can get a tax subsidy from the government (not my "assumption" that is a Supreme Court ruling). Is that something a local New Testament Church should be doing, seeking a tax subsidy and other "advantages" from the world system? I think not, nay, I say nay.

Lawyers will say there is "protection" and "advantages" to incorporating, but then again we know what Jesus had to say about lawyers now don't we.

How is it the LORD'S Church survived for centuries without the "advantage" of incorporating, but now His Church needs these advantages? Delusional for sure.

Hay John, give me a hit, dude, must be some good stuff you're smoking.