Are our churches really New Testament Churches...

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
Advantages to 501C3?? You're smoking crack man. So they incorporate that they can get a tax subsidy from the government (not my "assumption" that is a Supreme Court ruling).

So you favor churches paying income tax, then. That's a separate issue. However, a house of worship is not required to file for tax exemption to be tax exempt (which blows a hole in your "subsity" claim).

Is that something a local New Testament Church should be doing, seeking a tax subsidy and other "advantages" from the world system? I think not, nay, I say nay.

Then, again, you believe churches should pay income tax.

Hay John, give me a hit, dude, must be some good stuff you're smoking.

I don't appreciate the sarcasm. It's belittling and offensive, not to mention, infantile and disrespectful.

 

[IFB Mole]

The Ku Klux Klan is not a threat to the workers of spiritual darkness the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ IS!! The workers of spiritual iniquity want to silence CHRISTIANS!! Not those they already have deceived and are in darkness.

Lay off the pipe Johnv

(Johnv I hope you know I say the crack and pipe thing as a JOKE, ok?)

 

[IFB Mole]

Johnv

Churches are AUTOMATICALLY exempt from taxes, I am not for them paying taxes, well actually they do via payroll taxes, medicare, social security and the like. All are taxes.

The best alternative is to form a 501C3 non profit seperate and distinct from the New Testament Church.

 

[Johnv]

So the KKK can make anti-homesexual comments, but Christian can't? Sorry, but your knowlege of tax exempt law, not to mention constitutional law, is quite limited.

As far as the crack and pipe thing, I don't care if it's a joke. It's offensive and disrespectful. Kindlyt refrain

 

[IFB Mole]

Johnv

Are you really in denial that there isn't a battle in the world, a SPIRITUAL battle in high places? This battle is against the LORD's people, not the KKK. WE are the enemy to the workers of darkness NOT the KKK and the homo's, CHRISTIANS are the enemy.


My deepest apologies about the crack pipe

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
Are you really in denial that there isn't a battle in the world, a SPIRITUAL battle in high places?

I never said anything about that. I, in fact, do think that there is/are a spiritual battle/battles in this world, and have been since Eve ate the fruit. But that does not in any way have anything to do with your claim that a church filing for tax exempt status is wrong.

 

[IFB Mole]

I do want to make clear that actual revoking of tax-exemptions will be few and far between what will happen is SILENCING of the preachers. Their messages will get more and more watered down. The love of God will be allowed but fire and brimstone shingle ripp'n preaching against overriding public policy will jeopordize a 501C3 church's tax exemption

 

[IFB Mole]

Johnv,

tax exemption, well FILING for approval with the IRS for RECOGNITION of tax-exemption IS WRONG. Why? because to do that they must incorporate and relinquish their biblical soverignty to the state and the IRS - THAT IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR.

A 501C3 incorporated church is not a TRUE church in the biblical sense because it is now UNDER the authority of the state. They MUST LEGALLY comply to every and all laws and these laws allow IRS and state intrusion and control in almost every area of church function and polity.

A body of believers has NO business placing ANY AREA of the Lord's Church under the authority of the state.

I am not some radical patriot nut. As a citizen I am all for laws and stucture. For a CHURCH the laws and rules are the BIBLE and the BIBLE alone - not the IRS or corporate law.

 

[Johnv]

Again, it's irrelevant to the topic of 501c3 incrporation.

 

[IFB Mole]

How is it irrelevent? A 501C3 effectively removes Christ as soveriegn Lord and replaces Him with the IRS and corporate law and that is irrelevent?

Just ONE publication from the IRS regarding a 501C3 not for profit corporation is over 66 pages long - just ONE publication.

a 501c3 church = IRS/state controlled church

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
How is it irrelevent? A 501C3 effectively removes Christ as soveriegn Lord and replaces Him with the IRS and corporate law and that is irrelevent?

I fail to see how, considering that Jesus tells us to give to God what is God's and to Ceasar what is Ceasar's.

Even sans a 501c3, a house of worship is limited to operating within the confines of the law, further negating your contention. Jesus' instruction to render to God and Ceasar accordingly likewise applies.

I myself woud never, ever, donate to any church, charity, or other not-for-profit organization that does not have a tax exempt filing status.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
I do want to make clear that actual revoking of tax-exemptions will be few and far between what will happen is SILENCING of the preachers. Their messages will get more and more watered down. The love of God will be allowed but fire and brimstone shingle ripp'n preaching against overriding public policy will jeopordize a 501C3 church's tax exemption

Silencing of the preachers has happened ever since there were preachers and prophets. John the Baptist's head was cut off, almost all the deciples were martryed, Calvin had his Armenian nemesis burned at the stake, etc. Why should today be any different?

 

[IFB Mole]

Johnv,

You crack me up man;

"I myself would never, ever, donate to any church, charity, or other not-for-profit organization that does not have a tax exempt filing status."

In other words you would never give money unless it was a state chartered (incorporated) and IRS approved (501C3) 'organization'. You did mention CHURCH in your giving practice, so presumably you give to non profit 501c3 corporate ‘churches’ and not New Testament Churches. You should have said so in the first place!!

StraightandArrow - yes there has always been persecution BUT today even the most conservative churches embrace with open arms the shackles of incorporating and IRS laws.

An incorporated IRS tax-exempt 501C3 "church" functions more as a Christian organization (business). Sure it is called a church and preaches the Gospel (well mostly anyway) BUT is weighed down in so much rules and regulations and legal mumbo jumbo that there are now legal seminars to make sure "your ministry is legal and doesn't step over the IRS rules". How about making sure they're BIBLICAL.

I wonder if Paul were alive today that he would care what the IRS rules were?

Unfortunately most believers are just like Johnv - make sure we file the right forms to seek permission, incorporate and conform and abide by all of man's laws OVER the Lord's Church. Make sure we're "legal" and "have permission" to form a church.

As for Johnv we see he wants to submit the LORD'S Church under the laws of man. As a PERSON, we should have laws to govern PEOPLE but the LORD'S Church is NOT subject to man's laws unless we volunteer it to them, via incorporating and tax-exempt ID #'s.

We are to render to Caesar what is his - BUT THE LORD'S CHURCH IS NOT HIS NOR SUBJECT TO HIM. There or two separate and distinct jurisdictions: one is government for society the other is GOD over HIS CHURCH.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
JohnV,

Advantages to 501C3?? You're smoking crack man.

So they incorporate that they can get a tax subsidy from the government (not my "assumption" that is a Supreme Court ruling). Is that something a local New Testament Church should be doing, seeking a tax subsidy and other "advantages" from the world system? I think not, nay, I say nay.

Lawyers will say there is "protection" and "advantages" to incorporating, but then again we know what Jesus had to say about lawyers now don't we.

How is it the LORD'S Church survived for centuries without the "advantage" of incorporating, but now His Church needs these advantages? Delusional for sure.

Hay John, give me a hit, dude, must be some good stuff you're smoking.

Drop your tax exempt status and you can say or do whatever you like as long as it's legal otherwisw. What's your dilemma?

 

[IFB Mole]

My dilemma is how it is so acceptable and openly embraced by churches to file all the "legal" documents and to apply for a tax exempt # - thus placing the Lord's Church UNDER the government and the IRS

 

[rsr]

Then it's not your dilemma, Mole.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
In other words you would never give money unless it was a state chartered (incorporated) and IRS approved (501C3) 'organization'.

Absolutely. I believe in accountability of practice. The 501c# status guarantees that the charity I've giving to is operating as a not-for-profit charity.

You did mention CHURCH in your giving practice, so presumably you give to non profit 501c3 corporate ‘churches’ and not New Testament Churches. You should have said so in the first place!!

Sine you have failed to show how filing for a 501c3 automatically disqualifies a church from being an NT church, your point goes unmade.

An incorporated IRS tax-exempt 501C3 "church" functions more as a Christian organization (business).

You have failed, and quite miserably, I might add, to demonstrate how an unincorporated church will function differently than an incorporated church.

...BUT is weighed down in so much rules and regulations and legal mumbo jumbo...

I hate to burst your bubble, but unincorporated churches are subject to the same "rules and regulations and legal mumbo jumbo" that any not-for-profit organization is. The difference is that an unincorporated church is limited in its tax exempt status to activities that are strictly akin to a house of worship.

I wonder if Paul were alive today that he would care what the IRS rules were?

Paul would probably mirror Jesus, who said to render to Ceasar's what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's.

Unfortunately most believers are just like Johnv

Yes, most believers believe in responsiblility and accountability. And most believers are a bit more knowlegeable in the tax code that you appear to be.

Make sure we're "legal" and "have permission" to form a church.

Yet another example of your lack of knowlege on the topic. the 501c3 status affects a church's exemption from paying income tax. It does not define a church. You would have us believe that the tax exempt status defines the church, which is quite an unscriptural view.

As for Johnv we see he wants to submit the LORD'S Church under the laws of man.

When it comes to the tax exempt status, you bet. What is Ceasar's should be rendered to Ceasar.

As a PERSON, we should have laws to govern PEOPLE but the LORD'S Church is NOT subject to man's laws unless we volunteer it to them, via incorporating and tax-exempt ID #'s.

The Lord's church IS people. The Lord's church is not an organization, wiether they're tax exempt or not.

We are to render to Caesar what is his - BUT THE LORD'S CHURCH IS NOT HIS NOR SUBJECT TO HIM.

Sure it is. The Lord's church is people. People are commanded by scriptuer to be subject to the authority of the government.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
A 501 c3 not for profit incorporated church is NOT a New Testatment Church.

You, like so many other sadly uninformed people, seem to have confused a church incorporated under various state laws, and the non-taxable status of all churches regardless of whether or not they are incorporated in the state in which they operate.

Any church that does not pay federal income tax on all its tithes and offerings does not do so because they are non-taxable under Title 26, section 501c3 of the Internal Revenue Code. Just see the explanation in Title 26, Section 508c1a. Being incorporated does not change church status under either 501c3 or 508c1a. The IRS treats all churches as if they were incorporated under the laws of their state.

If a church is not 501c3 then it pays federal income tax on all its tithes and offerings.

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
(Johnv I hope you know I say the crack and pipe thing as a JOKE, ok?)

Proverbs 26: 18 Like a madman who throws firebrands, arrows, and death, 19 Is the man who deceives his neighbor, And says, "I was only joking!"

 

[TCassidy]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:
battle in the world, a SPIRITUAL battle in high places?

Yes, there is a battle, but it is a battle against ignorance and false teachers.