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Sooooo, in your opinion, if someone sins, they never were saved? You sure are judgemental. Do you think Billy Graham is saved?
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No, based upon his fruits, he is not yet saved. He talks the talk but only part of it, but does not walk the walk, only walks part of it. He sends souls to the dens of wolves and he also yolks himself and others with unbelievers - can two walk together unless they be agreed?. This is not a good fruit, but a very bad one. Any born again christian would know just by believing and applying scriptural truth. I am commanded to judge all things. If we do not, we leave ourselves open to deception, and the Lord has said, let no man decieve you by any means. The churches really need to get back to obeying the commands of our Lord, and to test all things, to judge all things by the scriptures, instead of their own judgements. Many sadly are failing to do this, and then falsely rebuke those who do obey the Lords commands, saying the Lord does not say to do this. Oh, you are clearly wrong. We are to judge, but not of our own judgement, but by God's indicated in the scriptures. This is how we are kept from being decieved. We are also told to be as wise as serpents, but as harmless as doves. We are told to know the enemy and recognize the enemy, so that we are not decieved. The only way one can do this is by testing all things, judging all things to scriptural truths. This includes our very own lives and our application of those scriptural truths in ALL ASPECTS OF OUR LIVES, and ALL PEOPLE that come into our lives.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Sooooo, in your opinion, if someone sins, they never were saved? You sure are judgemental. Do you think Billy Graham is saved?
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No, based upon his fruits, he is not yet saved. He talks the talk but only part of it, but does not walk the walk, only walks part of it. He sends souls to the dens of wolves and he also yolks himself and others with unbelievers - can two walk together unless they be agreed?. This is not a good fruit, but a very bad one. Any born again christian would know just by believing and applying scriptural truth. I am commanded to judge all things. If we do not, we leave ourselves open to deception, and the Lord has said, let no man decieve you by any means. The churches really need to get back to obeying the commands of our Lord, and to test all things, to judge all things by the scriptures, instead of their own judgements. Many sadly are failing to do this, and then falsely rebuke those who do obey the Lords commands, saying the Lord does not say to do this. Oh, you are clearly wrong. We are to judge, but not of our own judgement, but by God's indicated in the scriptures. This is how we are kept from being decieved. We are also told to be as wise as serpents, but as harmless as doves. We are told to know the enemy and recognize the enemy, so that we are not decieved. The only way one can do this is by testing all things, judging all things to scriptural truths. This includes our very own lives and our application of those scriptural truths in ALL ASPECTS OF OUR LIVES, and ALL PEOPLE that come into our lives.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Cindig,
I did not vote, and will not vote anymore. The Lord has shown me too much in this area, and the days we are now living in, that I cannot in good conscience toward God vote for any man today. They are politicians, and liars and compromisers and their fruits are well known. Any born again child of God would not be able to compromise on biblical truth. Do you know anything about the Skull and Bones? Do you know anything about Bohemian Grove and what takes place there? Do you understand and realize that these men are for a New World Order (coming kingdom of anti-christ)? Do you understand that many in Germany thought and believed Hitler himself was a christian? We must test all things and people to the scriptures, to keep ourselves from being decieved and falling outside of God's will and truth and losing the effectiveness of our witness to a lost and dying world. Do you realize that we are living very close to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ? Has God shown you this? Do you realize and understand that we are on this earth ONLY TO SHARE THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, and that our nation is HEAVENLY, and not EARTHLY? We are to follow the laws of the land we live in, provided they do not conflict with our faith and way of life, but we are not commanded to be part of the evil nations out there. There is NO NATION on this earth that is christian, or Godly. Even Israel, God's chosen people and chosen nation of this world, are Godly. Do you realize this? Do you understand this truth? I have allegiance to no man, nor country, as they are all evil. God uses them to keep order and punish evil doers, and is under his soveriegnty and control, but nowhere am I commanded to be part of it by virtue of supporting it and it's evils. We, are to be the light in this world, and the light is opposite of darkness. All nations in this world are in darkness, and we are commanded to come out of it. WE are to be following only our Lord, and no one or anything else.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
I did not vote, and will not vote anymore. The Lord has shown me too much in this area, and the days we are now living in, that I cannot in good conscience toward God vote for any man today. They are politicians, and liars and compromisers and their fruits are well known. Any born again child of God would not be able to compromise on biblical truth. Do you know anything about the Skull and Bones? Do you know anything about Bohemian Grove and what takes place there? Do you understand and realize that these men are for a New World Order (coming kingdom of anti-christ)? Do you understand that many in Germany thought and believed Hitler himself was a christian? We must test all things and people to the scriptures, to keep ourselves from being decieved and falling outside of God's will and truth and losing the effectiveness of our witness to a lost and dying world. Do you realize that we are living very close to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ? Has God shown you this? Do you realize and understand that we are on this earth ONLY TO SHARE THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, and that our nation is HEAVENLY, and not EARTHLY? We are to follow the laws of the land we live in, provided they do not conflict with our faith and way of life, but we are not commanded to be part of the evil nations out there. There is NO NATION on this earth that is christian, or Godly. Even Israel, God's chosen people and chosen nation of this world, are Godly. Do you realize this? Do you understand this truth? I have allegiance to no man, nor country, as they are all evil. God uses them to keep order and punish evil doers, and is under his soveriegnty and control, but nowhere am I commanded to be part of it by virtue of supporting it and it's evils. We, are to be the light in this world, and the light is opposite of darkness. All nations in this world are in darkness, and we are commanded to come out of it. WE are to be following only our Lord, and no one or anything else.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Do you sin Michelle?
Pete Richert
New Member
michelle,
I have only skimmed the last couple of pages in case I miss something here. I wasn't implying that repentence is not nessisary for salvation. My definition of trusting in Christ to save us assumes that we realize that we are sinners and need saving! I am just disagreeing that one must have a certain date or memory fixed in their hand of that initial repentence in order to know they are saved. I have been repentent of my sins for as long back as I can remember. Farther back then when I first believed Christ was the sacrificial solution. But just as I don't relay or even care about when I first trusted in Christ, I also don't care about when I first repented. What matters to me is that I repent TODAY of my sins, and the today I trust in Christ to forgive me of my sins and cleanse me of all unrightousness. That is my assurance.
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Do you sin Michelle?
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The question should rather be: Do you strive not to sin. That is a better and more biblical question to be asked of a saved person. The Lord has said: Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect. We are to strive to please the Lord, which is something that comes automatically from the heart of the saved person. I strive to please the Lord because I know him and love him. Do I fail, sure, as we all do. But I strive to please him, and obey his word, and I know he is faithful and able to show me and bring me back when I do fail.
You are speaking however, of individual sins after salvation. But, we have been talking about the fruits of those claiming to be born again christians who are in the lime-light and very influencial in the christian churches. You can so judge my fruits anytime you wish, and I welcome it, and also advise it, as this is what the scriptures tell us to do. You will not find me yolking myself in fellowship with unbelievers, nor referring anyone to a den of wolves, nor will you find me compromising on the Lord's truth. Those that do this, must be warned of, so others will not fall to deception.
If we do not warn, nor apply and obey scriptural truth to all things, then we do not love God, and cannot therefore love others, as we are also commanded to do. Do you love God because you feel you have to? Do you love others cause you feel you have to? Or does it come automatically from the heart? And do your actions/fruits manifest this? By their fruits you shall know them.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Do you sin Michelle?
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The question should rather be: Do you strive not to sin. That is a better and more biblical question to be asked of a saved person. The Lord has said: Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect. We are to strive to please the Lord, which is something that comes automatically from the heart of the saved person. I strive to please the Lord because I know him and love him. Do I fail, sure, as we all do. But I strive to please him, and obey his word, and I know he is faithful and able to show me and bring me back when I do fail.
You are speaking however, of individual sins after salvation. But, we have been talking about the fruits of those claiming to be born again christians who are in the lime-light and very influencial in the christian churches. You can so judge my fruits anytime you wish, and I welcome it, and also advise it, as this is what the scriptures tell us to do. You will not find me yolking myself in fellowship with unbelievers, nor referring anyone to a den of wolves, nor will you find me compromising on the Lord's truth. Those that do this, must be warned of, so others will not fall to deception.
If we do not warn, nor apply and obey scriptural truth to all things, then we do not love God, and cannot therefore love others, as we are also commanded to do. Do you love God because you feel you have to? Do you love others cause you feel you have to? Or does it come automatically from the heart? And do your actions/fruits manifest this? By their fruits you shall know them.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
We now know who will be the "righteous" judge on judgment day----Michelle
It is nice to know that all the pharisees are not dead
You are commanded to judge all "things", you are never commanded to judge anyone. It is not your place to judge whether Billy Graham or anyone else is saved. You may biblically judge his actions and works, you may choose to stay away from him because you feel he is doing harm to the Body of Christ, BUT you are not the Lord and you have no biblical right to decide who is and who is not saved. Shame on you, you are not diety.
Bro Tony
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I repeat - Do you sin? Yes or no will suffice.
Just for the uninformed new posters among us, this phrase is usually (as it is in this case) followed by extrabiblical hogwash
The Question that Michelle actually now needs to answer C4K to keep it relevant to her judgement of the spiritual condition of a person she does not know, is "does President Bush strive to not sin"
Since she can't answer that, and won't answer your question, I am beginning to doubt her salvation since deception and a judgemental spirit are not fruits of the spirit as far as I can tell. After all, by their fruits you shall know them.
Classic double standard territory here, Bush can't be a christian because of percieved sin, but Michelle can sin and be a christian as long as she strives to not sin. But then, we still don't know if she does or not?
Heres a relevant classic rock reference for more shock value
"I'm not a sinner, I've never sinned
I've got a friend in Jesus
And I know that when I die,
He's gonna set me up with the Spirit in the sky"
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
So if I "strive not to sin" and yet do sin, am I saved or not?
If a year ago I strove not to sin and did not sin was I saved then?
If so then I once was a Christian, but now I am not?
How many sins do you have to commit while striving not to sin for people like Michelle to be able to judge you as not being saved?
This is confusing theology.
I am glad that God will be my judge at the end of the day
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If a year ago I strove not to sin and did not sin was I saved then?
If so then I once was a Christian, but now I am not?
How many sins do you have to commit while striving not to sin for people like Michelle to be able to judge you as not being saved?
This is confusing theology.
I am glad that God will be my judge at the end of the day
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I am going to bed - I want to see if I can get a yes or no answer before I get up in the morning.
Please, no cutting and pasting, no explainations, just yes or no.
Pete Richert
New Member
Jesus said we would know people by their fruits. John is adament in 1st John that those who are in God love thier brother and that by this love we know that we are in God. The Bible does not condemn all speculation over someone's position before God. How else could we witness to anyone?
I think the on going disagreement here is that each side tries to take Jesus's word to the extreme. On the one side some wish to argue that we can know perfectly by their actions (over say President Bush or Billy Grahamn) and others wish to say we can't know at all no matter what their actions (even if they are athesists or satan worshippers; since they may have "accepted" Christ in their youth). I content that Jesus statement is a general principle. Yes, I agree that we can't know for sure whether someone who claims to know Christ yet shows no evidence of loving their brother is nessisarily not saved, but I would probably take my chances and whitness to them! Likewise president Bush, who claims all roads lead to heaven. I think in general we are making way to much of this, as we are fighting over the few that sort of do church and seem to walk and talk in ambuiguity and not the billions outside the church who live pagan lives completly seperated from the love of God.
I think the on going disagreement here is that each side tries to take Jesus's word to the extreme. On the one side some wish to argue that we can know perfectly by their actions (over say President Bush or Billy Grahamn) and others wish to say we can't know at all no matter what their actions (even if they are athesists or satan worshippers; since they may have "accepted" Christ in their youth). I content that Jesus statement is a general principle. Yes, I agree that we can't know for sure whether someone who claims to know Christ yet shows no evidence of loving their brother is nessisarily not saved, but I would probably take my chances and whitness to them! Likewise president Bush, who claims all roads lead to heaven. I think in general we are making way to much of this, as we are fighting over the few that sort of do church and seem to walk and talk in ambuiguity and not the billions outside the church who live pagan lives completly seperated from the love of God.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
Good post Pete - dead on!
You have to understand the position President Bush is in. He can't publically tell people that their religion is going to lead them to hell. How about the preacher that treads on thin ice when talking about the election, same thing. Michelle did your pastor ever talk about the election? What if all christians took the same stance you did and did not vote. We would have Kerry as president, and believe you me, that is really scary! If you are Baptist, surely you have heard of Adrian Rogers, he said it is a sin for a christian not to vote. If Adrian says it, I believe it. God has truly gifted him in prophesy(preaching). I go to his church often, even though it is a 2 1/2hr. drive. It is a real treat to worship occasionally there.
I understand full well the position he is in. A true born again child of God would not be able to be in that position, nor would thier desire or choice to be to be in it. Maybe he believes the Lord Jesus Christ, but he is definately not yet saved, as shown by his fruits. Whether Kerry or Bush in the postition of President doesn't really matter. They both have the same opinion on things, just going about it in different ways and words. You can believe men, such as Adrian Rogers (don't know who he is) but I rely upon the scriptures and the leading of the Lord in my life. I do not need to vote, nor could I vote for such men. This is not a biblical mandate placed upon me. In fact, the scriptures tell me not to vote for these men.
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
And if he did, I'd be asking myself, did I vote for POTUS, or for preacher? I voted for POTUS, and he needs to keep his private spiritual views private, even if they agree with mine.
I don't know if it's a sin per se, but not voting is certainly the shirking of one's responsibility. In other words, if your'e not voting, your'e being irresponsible. If irresponsibility is a sin, then so be it.
You'd be wrong. He is indeed saved, and has given his testimony publicly. You're confusing "by their fruits shall you know them" and "by their fruits shall you like them". Also, your previous post makes it sound like a Christian cannot be POTUS when you said "A true born again child of God would not be able to be in that position, nor would thier desire or choice to be to be in it". If that's the case, then what's the issue?
It appears that you not only didn't vote for POTUS, but you didn't vote at all. That is indeed irresponsible. There are numerous items on ballots that Christians need to have their voices heard on: Measures, initiatives, local city and town councils, propositions, school and civic boards, judges, mayors, clerks, etc. In my own city, a councilmember was elected by just 25 votes.there are 30 people in my own condo complex who voted for that person. We easily could have swayed the election by not voting.
Correct. We are called to be salt and light. Salt is a preservative, but it doesn't do any good if in the bottle. We need to get out of the bottle and get involved in the society we live in. Here in America, we have the freedom to get involved in the government (local, state, and federal). At a minimum, it means voting - although it could be much more. If we don't, we are definately shirking our responsibility. And if you know something is good to do and you don't, then it is sin to you (James 4:17)
I am surprised that you all don't know who Adrian Rogers is. He has been President of the Southern Baptist Convention many times. He personally knew Ronald Regan and George Bush Sr.
his church is in Memphis, TN. It has about 28,000 members. He is 74 and is going to retire this Spring.
Back to the subject. Johnv, I agree with all of your post. Very good. Michelle, I cannot believe that you state George Bush is not a christian, how in the world would you ever know that? He has said many times that he was saved, Billy Graham is the preacher that lead him to the Lord. There is a book out that I plan on getting, it's "George Bush's Faith". Maybe someone should tell the author it's a false book, Michelle says he's not saved.
Bush and Kerry are not different, where have you been? Abortion-Bush against, Kerry is for it. Homosexuals-Bush against, Kerry is for it.
You are the one that is pointing out that we will know them by their fruits. Hmmmmmm
his church is in Memphis, TN. It has about 28,000 members. He is 74 and is going to retire this Spring.
Back to the subject. Johnv, I agree with all of your post. Very good. Michelle, I cannot believe that you state George Bush is not a christian, how in the world would you ever know that? He has said many times that he was saved, Billy Graham is the preacher that lead him to the Lord. There is a book out that I plan on getting, it's "George Bush's Faith". Maybe someone should tell the author it's a false book, Michelle says he's not saved.
Bush and Kerry are not different, where have you been? Abortion-Bush against, Kerry is for it. Homosexuals-Bush against, Kerry is for it.
You are the one that is pointing out that we will know them by their fruits. Hmmmmmm
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
This is not a politicalthread. President Bush has plenty of problems with his testimony. But he is not the issue here.
I guess Michelle is not willing to answer a simple question.
Do you sin Michelle?
I guess Michelle is not willing to answer a simple question.
Do you sin Michelle?