Are People who "used" to be a Christian still saved?

[here now]

Originally posted by corinne:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by michelle:
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So you believe that your name is, 100% for sure, in the book of life (what only God is supposed to know, you happen to know too?)
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Yes, I Know this for sure. Do you not? Where are the scriptures that indicate we cannot know? What do the scriptures tell us HOW one's name is put in this book?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

You can believe it Michelle, it does not make it true. Nobody but God knows who is in the Book of Life. You cannot pretend to know for sure. At best you can have a good feeling that you are, but certainty, I do not think so.

Corinne </font>[/QUOTE]Corrine,

Please read this carefully:

1 John 5:10
10-He that believeth on the son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made Him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave His Son.

11- And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

12-He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13-These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


I can tell you 100% for sure that my name is in the Book of Life. And it is ONLY there because God made His Son, Jesus Christ, to be a sacrifice for me. So I give Him ALL of the Glory.

 

[here now]

Originally posted by C4K:
So if I "strive not to sin" and yet do sin, am I saved or not?

If a year ago I strove not to sin and did not sin was I saved then?

If so then I once was a Christian, but now I am not?

How many sins do you have to commit while striving not to sin for people like Michelle to be able to judge you as not being saved?

This is confusing theology.
I am glad that God will be my judge at the end of the day

.

Once saved always saved. The flesh man will always sin. But it is the Holy Spirit within that shines through, when that flesh man has been born again.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I agree HN, I also know 100% for sure that my name is recorded in heaven.

Do I sin? Yes.
Do I strive not to sin? Yes
Is my salvation contigent on "how I do?" No

My continued salvation, just like my initial salvation, is by the grace of God.

 

[here now]

C4K says-

This is confusing theology.
I am glad that God will be my judge at the end of the day .


here now says-
I thank God that man is not the judge of my salvation...What a relief!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I thank God that woman is not the judge of my salvation .

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by michelle:
I do not have this same understanding of these men. They are both reprobate. ..George Bush is not a born again christian, and if you looked to his fruits, and tested his spirit, against scriptural truths, instead of just taking his WORD for it, you all wouldn't be so duped.

And you know this how, exactly?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I suppose the best way to know if you are saved is to let Michelle examine your works to see if you are.

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
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But you cannot say, in my opinion, to people who have been born again and then have strayed away, that this is it for them, they cannot return to the Lord. On the contrary you have to go out and fish these people back into the Holy Net, help them believe again.
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Once one is born again, what you say in the quote above is an IMPOSSIBLITY. Go back and read the verse of scripture that Diane posted. This is just one of the many. Once one is caught in the net, it is kept and cleansed. It is not lost and there is no need to re-catch the fish in the net, as the fisherman is the Lord who is casting the net and will bring it onto the boat. The fish is already caught in the net and brought onto the boat if one is truly saved. There is no escape for that fish. If being caught in the net, the fish wiggles out - then that was not a saved fish to begin with. If there was a hole in the net, and it fell out, it was the fault of the net, not the fisherman and not necessarily the fish and not yet brought onto the boat and cleansed, and a new net will be cast out to catch that fish eventually, but that fish was not yet brought onto the boat and cleansed.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

It is not an impossibility. You cannot pretend to know the absolute truth because you believe in Christ. Everything other than your belief in Christ is doctrine, and all Christians are free to choose the one that suits them best. It means that by being a Calvinist you are neither right nor wrong, you believe what you believe, that is your personal choice.

Fact remains that all Christians who believe in Jesus Christ, whatever doctrine they like best, will be saved. We can discuss this until the end of time and not come to an agreement on our respective ways of thinking. But we can agree that our common belief in Christ as God is what makes us brothers and sisters in Christ.


Christians are a big family, and like in all families there are discussions and dissents, it does not mean that we do not love each other or that we will not all be saved. We will if tomorrow we continue to hold the beliefs we hold today.

Corinne

 

[Matt Black]

No cigar, Roger; we still don't know whether Michelle sins or not. I rather fear that if I'm weighed in the balance by her I shall be found wanting. I thank God for Jesus and His judgement accordingly!

Yours in Christ (and glad of it!)

Matt

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
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I have always believed, as far as I can remember as a child, therefore I do not know what it means to be "born-again", I was born with this natural feeling that there is a God and as soon as I was able to put a name on people I knew who Christ was, God and the Son of God. He did not impose himself on me, he was already there.
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I always believed in God and Jesus Christ from the time I was a child also. However, I was not saved until I was 30. God called me out. It was not by any man's preaching, but God's word and truth. I had heard the gospel many times throughout my life, but NEVER REPENTED OF MY SINS. I never KNEW the Lord personally. I never understood the cross personally, until that day He showed me. I can remember the day I was saved, and from that point on, I strive continually to please him, and KNOW FOR SURE that I will go to heaven, and that my name is written in the lambs book of life. God has given me this assurance. One I never had previously. It comes with repentance mixed with faith. I must conclude, that if you cannot remember the day the Lord convicted your heart of your sins against him, and your need for his salvation, and your repenting of those sins whole-heartedly and being forgiven of those sins - past, present, future, that you might want to pray about this. I find this above testimony of yours, explains quite well why you believe as you do. You are not yet sure, because you have not yet experienced it. The day the Lord saves the persons wretched soul, one will NEVER FORGET it.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Oh I am sure. What I find frightening with you and a lot of calvinists is how they think they are so much better - luckier - than everybody else. God elected you, so everybody else is in the wrong and will fry in hell. Blimey, you are closer to the Catholics than I thought after all. They are so sure of themselves too.

Vanity, vanity.

Corinne

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by Pete Richert:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I must conclude, that if you cannot remember the day the Lord convicted your heart of your sins against him, and your need for his salvation, and your repenting of those sins whole-heartedly and being forgiven of those sins - past, present, future, that you might want to pray about this. I find this above testimony of yours, explains quite well why you believe as you do. You are not yet sure, because you have not yet experienced it. The day the Lord saves the persons wretched soul, one will NEVER FORGET it.

WOW, I couldn't disagree more. I grew up in a Christian home as well, and I don't remember when I first truly believed. Who cares. I am not saved because I did or believed something in the past, I am saved because I trust in Jesus right now. I have assurance because I know, this very second, who my redeemer is. Perhaps you ancedotal experience is different since you admit yourself you never truly believed until you were thirty. Its harder to put a finger on when it developed between the ages of 8 and 10. </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you Peter, you worded this very well. That is exactly what I meant to say from the beginning: what matters is whether you believe in Christ right now, today. Yesterday you could have been a criminal, and today if you have that belief that Christ is God, you are Christian. As far as tomorrow goes, of course those who have truly accepted Christ in their hearts will find it almost impossible to deny him, but if Jesus says that the possibility to stray exists, I am more inclined to believe him than to believe people who think like Michelle does. Jesus v Calvin = I choose to believe Jesus.

Has it ever occurred to Michelle that the true chosen ones would be people who would never have to go through the pains of being without Christ for a good chunk of their life, who would have been born with Christ in their "genes" (so to speak) right from the start, that if God elected them he might have decided to put them on this earth with all his love and grace and gifts?

To be a good Christian, do you necessarily have to have been an unbeliever first? I do not think so. I believe that some people were predestinated to be Christians in their mother's womb, when they were pure.

Corinne

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by AVL1984:
So, in the opinion of David Daniel and Corinne, the Bible says we must be born again and again and again....am I reading you right?

No you are not reading right. To pledge your life to Christ every day does not mean that you plan on denying him the next day. It is only a faith reinforcement exercise. It helps you remain focuses, it confirms to you that the choice you made is the correct one for you, the best decision you could have taken in your life. It does not affect the strength of your faith, it is a mental exercise and a sure way of not forgetting to praise the Lord and pray.

I do not honestly believe it is possible to be born again, then become an unbeliever again, and have this flip-flop repeated a high number of times. At best, I think that you can flip flop once. That may mean you were unsure to start with, but it does not really matter, what counts is that the lost sheep returns to God. I believe that once you have made the decision to believe, failed, and decided to return, you will find it difficult to leave Christ behind again, because you have gained the experience of the without Christ. Still, I believe some people never come back or come back without being sincere. Nobody can really know what is in their hearts but GOd so at this stage, we can only speculate.

Corinne

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by cindig:
Hopefully tomorrow everyone will wake up a believer and go to bed a believer. Whew....Corinne, you say that Michelle is boasting of her salvation, I'm sure she wakes up every morning and goes to bed knowing her future in Christ is secure. How is that boasting, when you say that you wake up and by what You do and say is what is keeping you? You seem to have it backwards. We give God all the glory, not ourselves by what we do or don't do. God keeps us, not ourselves. Do I think I'm special, you bet I do, I am an heir to the King of Kings, I have an inheritance in Glory. The Bible says we can know that we are saved. What do you do with Hebrews 6-4:6? To beleive that your salvation could be lost, by that verse it says you cannot be saved again.
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Well I believe I am special too, as I believe that Christ is the Son of God and I am admitting it publicly. My daily pledge to Christ has absolutely nothing to do with my works and it is not what is keeping me, it is only a disciplined way of confirming to Christ what he already knows, that I am His. Every lover likes to hear he is loved. That is what I do every day. By doing so, I reiterate my belief that I am saved through him and thanks to him.

About Hebrews, the words used there, "enlightened", for example, do not refer to conversion to Christ, but to some experience of God. Some experience God, but do not put their trust in Jesus Christ. These people (the Jews?), having fallen away, cannot return to repentance.

However, and I find it makes my life much easier to not quote anyone other than Jesus, Jesus says in LUKE 15:7 that "Heaven will be happier over one lost sinner who returns to God than over 99 others who are righteous and have not strayed away."

Explain that one. Jesus does not speak in riddles, he is clear.

Corinne

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by Daniel David:
Corinne, although I don't agree with Michelle's understanding of salvation, God's hate is not to be thought of as some kind of malicious anger. It is perfect abhorance of something. This involves sin and people (I can give the Bible references if you really need them). It is his hatred of evil that provokes his justice and his love of his creation that provokes his mercy. Both are equally there.

God abhors sin because our sins are not his creation, they are our creation. Because we proved to be unable to stop sinning, because he loves us, he had to send us His Son to save us.

Corinne

 

[Matt Black]

DD, apologies for misrepresenting you. I do actually agree with your threefold description, but I would add my own twist re conversion that for some it is a process not a crisis, as I referred to in my long post a few pages back. I can put an exact date and time on when I came to faith in Christ - May 9th, 1986 at approx 1-45pm BST. My dad however can't - he knows for sure that he's a Christian now and he knows for sure that 20 years ago he wasn't, but he couldn't tell you when he went from being one to being the other. My wife similarly was raised Plymouth Brethren and can vaguely remember making some kind of commitment to Christ at around the age of 4 although she didn't fully understand it; she made a more sophisticated profession of faith at age 7 and then again as a teenager. When did she 'become a Christian'? I don't know and neither does she exactly but she is.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
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I note with comfort that your beloved George Bush and Dick Cheney, who you seem to revere as a model Christians, are both Methodist. I found this on a Methodist site:

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I do not have this same understanding of these men. They are both reprobate. Many christians have decieved themselves, by allowing such men to decieve them. It just goes to show, that many christians today are not obeying the Lord and his commands. We are to test the spirits if they are of God, to prove all things, and that we shall know them by their fruits. Many today have been duped, with and by those who continually throw in others faces the verse of scripture where Jesus said judge not, lest ye be judged, taking this out of context of the whole cannon of scripture. In fact, we are to judge all things by the scriptures themselves. George Bush is not a born again christian, and if you looked to his fruits, and tested his spirit, against scriptural truths, instead of just taking his WORD for it, you all wouldn't be so duped. He is decieving not only you all, but himself also. You are all supporting and praying blessings upon a man who is a skull and bones member, which is satanic, and to which we are told not to pray for, nor give godspeed. He never repented of being part of this secret society, and once a member, always a member. He also gave no warnings and said there was nothing wrong with it. Your beloved born again christian President has also appointed a very liberal man, who believes in abortions to the Supreme Court. He has called revenge upon those we should be reaching out with the gospel of Jesus Christ and bringing war and death to them. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing, and you have all been duped by him. You will one day have to account for supporting such a man.

Hey Michelle, for once I cannot find a bad thing to say about your post above (LOL - yanking your chain). I am glad to see that you are not duped by George Bush as many on this board are. You should go to the politics forum and talk to them LOL !!!

Don't put me in the same bag as the Christians who supported the Bush-Cheney ticket, I am French so I cannot vote, and if I'd been allowed to vote, I'd have voted against them as I have of them the same opinion you have (and many many Christians I speak to agree with us).

Corinne

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by cindig:
You have to understand the position President Bush is in. He can't publically tell people that their religion is going to lead them to hell. How about the preacher that treads on thin ice when talking about the election, same thing. Michelle did your pastor ever talk about the election? What if all christians took the same stance you did and did not vote. We would have Kerry as president, and believe you me, that is really scary! If you are Baptist, surely you have heard of Adrian Rogers, he said it is a sin for a christian not to vote. If Adrian says it, I believe it. God has truly gifted him in prophesy(preaching). I go to his church often, even though it is a 2 1/2hr. drive. It is a real treat to worship occasionally there.

President Bush seems to want a Christian Nation, preferably the US, as policeman of the world (frankly it is not such a bad idea - as a French citizen I prefer GIs to a hord of impious Chinese or barbarian Arabs) so he SHOULD start telling people the truth: that Jesus Christ, in whom he is alleged to believe (hey I can't read his heart anymore than Michelle can read mine, so I will stick to "allege"!) is coming back (never mind if the Jews who voted for him disagree or if it scares the s--t out of Israel) and that anybody who does not believe in him is as good as "toast". Because at the end of the day, that is what it is all about. That is what is coming to us. I thank God everyday for having put me in the winning team.

Corinne
http://www.christianresistance.com

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by michelle:
I understand full well the position he is in. A true born again child of God would not be able to be in that position, nor would thier desire or choice to be to be in it. Maybe he believes the Lord Jesus Christ, but he is definately not yet saved, as shown by his fruits. Whether Kerry or Bush in the postition of President doesn't really matter. They both have the same opinion on things, just going about it in different ways and words. You can believe men, such as Adrian Rogers (don't know who he is) but I rely upon the scriptures and the leading of the Lord in my life. I do not need to vote, nor could I vote for such men. This is not a biblical mandate placed upon me. In fact, the scriptures tell me not to vote for these men.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

A true Christian would not put himself in the position George Bush is in: he has not been serving God, he has been serving MONEY, BIG BUSINESSES. Hardly the fruits you expect from a Christian.

I can understand Michelle's hesitation to vote. It might have meant condoning behaviors she disapproves of.

Corinne

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I think we should to the topic - this is not a Bush thread.

 

[corinne]

Originally posted by cindig:
I am surprised that you all don't know who Adrian Rogers is. He has been President of the Southern Baptist Convention many times. He personally knew Ronald Regan and George Bush Sr.
his church is in Memphis, TN. It has about 28,000 members. He is 74 and is going to retire this Spring.
Back to the subject. Johnv, I agree with all of your post. Very good. Michelle, I cannot believe that you state George Bush is not a christian, how in the world would you ever know that? He has said many times that he was saved, Billy Graham is the preacher that lead him to the Lord. There is a book out that I plan on getting, it's "George Bush's Faith". Maybe someone should tell the author it's a false book, Michelle says he's not saved.
Bush and Kerry are not different, where have you been? Abortion-Bush against, Kerry is for it. Homosexuals-Bush against, Kerry is for it.
You are the one that is pointing out that we will know them by their fruits. Hmmmmmm

Hey, because Bush says he is saved does not make it true. You certainly cannot vote for the guy because he says THAT !!!! What is in his heart is not a voting decision criterium, you cannot possibly know if he is truly a Christian or not. i think he might be a Christian but if he is, he is a very bad one. I try to keep in mind that the devil, who also believes in Christ, can also be called a Christian. This helps me put things in perspective.

Corinne