I wouldn't go so far as to say "apostate", but certainly very foolish.
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Are some Churches getting out of hand?
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I wouldn't go so far as to say "apostate", but certainly very foolish.
It's the same reason one wouldn't use Spanish in an English speaking only community. It's addressing people where they are at just like you don't give a deep theological discussion to a group of brand new Christians. As I said, we've not done this in church because it would be completely ineffective to our congregation but I do think the youth have done it a time here or there. Oh wait! We DID play the first part of John Lennon's "Imagine" for a message to show the folly of the world - to show what the world is seeking for - NOT God.
It would show me that someone is thinking of me and interested in me. But absolutely the Gospel of Christ is enough but there are times we need to address a perceived need before we get to the full truth. Think of Jesus addressing the woman at the well. She was there for water and Jesus told her that He could give her water where she would never thirst. What a gimick, don't you think? Why not just tell her rather than tempting her with the water? Because He spoke of her need in a way that she would understand.
It could be but we don't have enough information to judge. It's kind of like seeing a married man out at lunch with another woman and gossips starting to talk - but they don't realize that it's his sister. We can't say that they are a liberal watered down church or if they are even doing a bait and switch. We just cannot judge without the facts.
I agree - but it's also important to know that God is concerned about things in our lives - even sex. He gave us some great words on the topic and understanding them is really important. I appreciate the honest teaching on the topic rather than the old straight laced discussions that I've had at other times.
Who says they're drawing in goats? Goats will not be saved. What about the future sheep of the shepherd?
So sex is an unbiblical fad?
I disagree.
I think that some might believe it!:laugh:
Nothing in the Bible about drawing the unsaved into the church to hear an Unbiblical message.
Yes, the new fad of preaching about sex in church in order to entertain goats is an Unbiblical fad.
This, of course, coming from somebody who also thought that the Prayer of Jabez was a good idea.
Then you must have heard the messages in order to be able to say that it was an unbiblical message.
Can you show me proof of this? That they are entertaining goats. That this is an unbiblical fad? I think Scripture has a lot to say about sex. Don't we go by the whole of Scripture or do we pick and choose what's right to teach on and what's a fad?
Well, of course I would - because it is in the Bible. Jabez prayed it and God felt it important enough to be in Scripture. Why are you arguing about things that are in Scripture?
Yep.
None that would satisfy you.
OK. Show me where we see the "Seven Day Sex Challenge" in the Bible.
Because the book and the program contained a lot of bad doctrine.
I didn't hear the message. What was unbiblical?
How do you know?
Show me where the sinner's prayer is in the Bible. Show me where wedding vows is in the Bible. Show me where potluck dinners are in the Bible. Show me where a pastor's secretary is in the Bible.
The "SDSC" was a challenge to the congregation - to the married couples. Is there anything bad about the challenge? Can you show me Biblically where it is a bad thing?
But I never read the book or the program. Our pastor taught on Jabez before the book and program came out. So were we wrong in doing it?
:thumbs::thumbs:
Because I've tried to reason with you before.
It's not. However, the tenets that it codifies (repentance and faith in Christ) are.
See Ephesians.
Neither of these are doctrines.
And what about the unmarried people in the congregation?
Nothing that would satisfy you.
Yes.
Ann it is a fad and the proff of that is all over the place you just need to pay attention. A few examples are billboards like "my lame sex life.com" or "my crappy sex life.com" or "sex crazy charlotte.com" Churches have advertised things like "4 weeks of sex" and the list could go on and on.
They put these billboards and signs up in their towns and when people visit them on the web the church site pops up. Many use provocative pictures to grab your attention.
Who says they are drawing goats you ask? They do!!! Just ask the leadership of these churches and they will tell you they are trying to target people in their 20's and 30's who are not in church. It is an unbiblical evangelism program. I say unbiblical because (like others have told you) the church is for the saved, the called out ones for the purpose of fellowship, discipleship, prayer and worship. We should not cross the line of holiness and seperation from the world and put out racy pictures and controversal web pages to draw the goats or the lost. We should share our faith with them in the market place; out in the world.
You would be hard-pressed to prove its not a fad and a program that comes out of the seeker movement.
They put these billboards and signs up in their towns and when people visit them on the web the church site pops up. Many use provocative pictures to grab your attention.
Who says they are drawing goats you ask? They do!!! Just ask the leadership of these churches and they will tell you they are trying to target people in their 20's and 30's who are not in church. It is an unbiblical evangelism program. I say unbiblical because (like others have told you) the church is for the saved, the called out ones for the purpose of fellowship, discipleship, prayer and worship. We should not cross the line of holiness and seperation from the world and put out racy pictures and controversal web pages to draw the goats or the lost. We should share our faith with them in the market place; out in the world.
You would be hard-pressed to prove its not a fad and a program that comes out of the seeker movement.
Neither is 7 days of sex. So?
This "yes" is in response to my question about the prayer of Jabez and our pastor teaching on it BEFORE the book and program came out. I asked "But I never read the book or the program. Our pastor taught on Jabez before the book and program came out. So were we wrong in doing it?"
So we were wrong in applying Scripture to our lives. Wow - that's amazing. I wonder what they teach in your church if they're not teach Scripture.
That's just sad.
So you're saying that those in their 20s and 30s have no chance to be saved? The goats are those who get to the end unsaved.
Now, your church doesn't have the unsaved come to the church? I'm not saying that we make our church for the unsaved but I'd certainly hope that your church presents the Gospel to the congregation for those who might not know Jesus Christ. To ignore the Gospel is wrong.
As for the racy things and such - do I think it's the best way to go? Probably not and I know our church would not do it. To say that a church has left Jesus Christ if they do it - I'd have to reserve my judgment. Some of these churches that have had these programs do not do them in the normal service but do it at an additional time. Yeah, some do it in the service but some do it outside.
Why do we feel that something that God has gifted us with - and something that He spoke about in Scripture - is off limit in the church? That's why we have so many issues with sex - no direct teaching in the church. Just "Wait until you're married" and that's it. There's a lot more to sex than just when you can do it. But I do agree that most probably the billboards and stuff are not the wisest move around. I'm the one who keeps up our church website and I've had to stop some things from going on the site because of my discernment for what we should put out there and what we should not. Billboards and cutesy website addys would not have gotten by me.
So bottom line, we can't just paint a wide stroke across all churches who do something, I think we knock down those who are doing a good job. We need to be discerning issues individually rather than just knocking down everyone who even slightly does something similar.
This is a good example of why we refuse to send our children to public schools.
Then why is it being preached in church?
I see. So, first, in post #14, you say:
And now you say that you've never done it?
Do you know what the Bible says about a double minded man?
We preach the word of God, not silly, Unbiblical fads.
It's called "application". Scripture teaches us to not deny our spouse - and this is a small challenge to enjoy each other's company for a week straight. Statistics show basically (to term it for the public area of the board) the more you use it the more you want it and enjoy it. To deny each other is not healthy. It's a fun challenge that will most likely enhance a marriage. It's the same as one pastor telling us to outserve our spouse. It's not directly written in the Bible but what a great application to submit to one another and for spouses to love and respect one another.
If we did the prayer of Jabez before the book and program came out, then don't you think we learned about the prayer of Jabez straight from Scripture? We're doing Romans now - what program is that? I am not double minded (nor am I a man LOL) - I am speaking truth. Too bad you equate Scripture with a program.
Good for you - as do we. But sex is no more a silly unbiblical fad than obedience to authority, servanthood, baptism, personal study of the Word or avoiding sin.
Using the signs and the secular songs is not and never will be scripture. They cross the clear lines of holiness and seperation that the scripture draws for us. This is being unevenly yoked. This is darkness (worldliness) have part with the light.
Does the Bible speak about sex? Yes it does.
Is sex a dirty thing? No it was created by God for marriage. :thumbs:
But does the Bible speak about "spicing things up"?---no, no, no.
Therefore Ann it is a program...not to be confused with Bible.
And another thing...if reaching these in their 20's and 30's is such a big deal then why speak with them about sex anyway? How is that their greatest need? Why not go out and confront them with sin and give them the saving Gospel of Christ?:jesus:
All this talk about reaching is a straw-man, a smoke screen for a church that wants to be "cool" and "relavent".
Does the Bible speak about sex? Yes it does.
Is sex a dirty thing? No it was created by God for marriage. :thumbs:
But does the Bible speak about "spicing things up"?---no, no, no.
Therefore Ann it is a program...not to be confused with Bible.
And another thing...if reaching these in their 20's and 30's is such a big deal then why speak with them about sex anyway? How is that their greatest need? Why not go out and confront them with sin and give them the saving Gospel of Christ?:jesus:
All this talk about reaching is a straw-man, a smoke screen for a church that wants to be "cool" and "relavent".
Oh, I see. So then, you're abandoning expository preaching for "application" preaching?
And the unmarried people in the congregation are left out in the cold? How does this apply to them?
Sorry, you lost me after "statistics". We get our doctrine from the word of God, not from statistics.
But you know that I was referring specifically to the Unbiblical book and it's Unbiblical program.
Too bad you can't read. I never equated scripture with a program. To the contrary, I stated several times that they are different things and that we should not substitute programs for scripture.
Never said that sex was silly, Unbiblical, or a fad.
You really do need to work on your reading comprehension.
Then make sure your church doesn't have a website, doesn't have a sign in front of the church, doesn't have a sound system or even electricity. Oh - add in an organ!
Haven't read Song of Solomon, have you??
Most anything we do is a program and not to be confused with the Bible. Do you have an order for your communion? Then it's a program. Do you do VBS? That's a program. Do you have a choir or music in your church? That's a program. If you toss out one then you must toss them all.
Do you work with 20s and 30s? We do. And trust me - many feel that God (if He exists) has nothing to say about sex. He has nothing to say about their lives at all. Knowing that God has a lot to say about this stuff is important so that they understand holiness and Godly relationships.
Please do not lump all churches together in "cool" and "relevant" because it's not true. I can paint with the best of them but I will judge according to works - not according to what one says on the internet with no firm facts behind them.
Ann are you now defending the signs with provocative material on them because you have VBS at your church or because you have sign in the front? You are grabbing for straws. Would you put a picture of with the feet of a man and woman sticking our from under the sheets on your sign for the world to see?
Now back to signs. Ann what you are doing is putting words in my mouth. I never said signs in and of themselves where the issue...it is whats on them thats the problem.
Furthermore the Song of Solomon must be kept in context. Its not a sex manual for marriage. Pick up any commentary you like and tell me what you find. It is about Christ and his church and the communion between the two. Again you are reaching for straws to try to prove your point. Poor context is what leads to false teaching.
As to the concerns of the 20's and 30's....What is the greatest need? Please answer that for me. Is it their sin and seperation from God or is it getting answers to all their questions? Holiness is not possible until they are saved. Using the "bait" of a sex talk to try to answer their questions about God is putting the cart before the horse don't you think?
Now back to signs. Ann what you are doing is putting words in my mouth. I never said signs in and of themselves where the issue...it is whats on them thats the problem.
Furthermore the Song of Solomon must be kept in context. Its not a sex manual for marriage. Pick up any commentary you like and tell me what you find. It is about Christ and his church and the communion between the two. Again you are reaching for straws to try to prove your point. Poor context is what leads to false teaching.
As to the concerns of the 20's and 30's....What is the greatest need? Please answer that for me. Is it their sin and seperation from God or is it getting answers to all their questions? Holiness is not possible until they are saved. Using the "bait" of a sex talk to try to answer their questions about God is putting the cart before the horse don't you think?
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