Are the Greek/Russian orthodox Valid Christian Churches?

[Martin Marprelate]

I was in St. Petersburg, Russia last month. My guide around the city told me that Russia is the most religious country in Europe and I dare say he is right.

However, there was a commemoration for the 200th anniversary of the building of a Cathedral, and the authorities brought an icon (painting) of the Virgin Mary outside the place an put it under an awning. Literally thousands of Russians queued for hours to do nothing else but kiss the thing. Inside the churches there is seldom a pulpit; there seems to be precious little preaching, but loads of idolatry. Religious, yes. Christian? I think not. :tear:

Steve

 

[Crabtownboy]

I was in St. Petersburg, Russia last month. My guide around the city told me that Russia is the most religious country in Europe and I dare say he is right.

I am not sure what your guide meant by religious. It is a nice phrase and one that is probably used in other cities in Europe.

However, there was a commemoration for the 200th anniversary of the building of a Cathedral, and the authorities brought an icon (painting) of the Virgin Mary outside the place an put it under an awning. Literally thousands of Russians queued for hours to do nothing else but kiss the thing.

Did you ask what is the meaning of kissing an icon? I have see this also but I am not sure what people are thinking when they kiss the icon. It may be simply a show of respect. For some they may be looking for 'magic', like people here who believe wearing a cross or having a plastic Jesus on their dashboard protects them.

Inside the churches there is seldom a pulpit; there seems to be precious little preaching, but loads of idolatry. Religious, yes. Christian? I think not. :tear:

Steve

A pulpit is not necessary for preaching. I have seen preaching in Orthodox churches and both the priest and all the people stand. Preaching without a pulpit is not that uncommon in many parts of the world.

I have seen preaching outdoors with no stand nor pulpit and yet it was preaching.

As far as idolatry goes there are Russian Orthodox priests who say your form of worship is idolatry. Calling names helps nothing. There are many ways to worship God. I am very, very slow in calling a person an idolater simply because I do not understand their forms of worship.

I hope you enjoyed St. Petersburg. It is IMHO the 2nd most beautiful city in the world. Did you tour the "Church of the Spilled Blood"? The mosaics inside make it one of the most amazing churches I have ever visited.

 

[WestminsterMan]

Point taken to an extent; however if you read the accounts of Campion's martyrdom, he personally told the Queen that he recognised her as lawful sovereign; it was for refusing to renounce his Catholicism for which he was condemned.

And none of that gets Calvin or the Salem lot off the hook...

St. Thomas Moore was beheaded for not agreeing with Henry (against the Church) regarding Henry's divorce. In other words, St. Thomas refused to recant his Catholicism.

WM

 

[Matt Black]

Same with John Fisher. Of course, the fact that Protestants can be beastly as well as Catholics won't suit Walter's revisionist version of history but never mind...

 

[Bro. Curtis]

How/where have they been arguing against it?

The inspiration of 2nd Peter is one of the most argued cases I have experienced, and yes, the challenge to prove 2nd Peter is scripture, using only other scripture to back it up has come from several Catholics.

Also, to say the RCC is how the bible came to be is hogwash.The original New Testament churches had the books, and the letters. The RCC was busy cvonfiscating these books, and putting the owners in jail or to death.

You could say the bible has been preserved, DESPITE the attempts by the RCC to make it THEIR book.

 

[Matt Black]

So...um.. how many of the NT books did each of the churches have?

 

[WestminsterMan]

snip...
Also, to say the RCC is how the bible came to be is hogwash.The original New Testament churches had the books, and the letters. The RCC was busy cvonfiscating these books, and putting the owners in jail or to death.

Hmmm... History shows that there were some churches with the N.T. cannon, yet there were great differences throughout the Church some even using heretical books. The Chuch had the authority and saw the need to set the cannon as a standard. Hence, the councils.

As to your last conspiracy theory statement... Hogwash indeed.

WM

 

[Dr. Walter]

Same with John Fisher. Of course, the fact that Protestants can be beastly as well as Catholics won't suit Walter's revisionist version of history but never mind...

Sorry to disappoint you but her protestant daughters have been almost as beastly as she is. The free church has been persectued by both.

 

[Dr. Walter]

I think you'll find that you were first in with the insults when you demeaned our Catholic and Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ. Of course, you will say that they are not Proper Christians(TM), that they are some kind of spiritual untermenschen compared to your own oh-so-superior brand of neo-Aryan Christianity.

[reply to Dr Walter (in case anyone was in doubt about that)]

Why is it when we are talking about whether a particular INSTITUTION is "Christian" in regard to its doctrines and practice that you fellas attempt to make it a PERSONAL attack on individual members, as though it is impossible for true christians to be part of paganized institutions??? Have you ever read Revelation 18:4 - "come out of her MY PEOPLE"????

Politicians do the same thing. When you attack the policies of a person they turn it into a personal attack on the person.

I will tell you the real issue. Your position has no substance, you cannot defend it with the Scriptures and so you attempt to transform my arguments which are directed toward the Christian or non-Christian character of Institutions by their DOCTRINES and make a personal attack on those who are members of such institutions. Nice try!

 

[Anastasia]

Did you ask what is the meaning of kissing an icon? I have see this also but I am not sure what people are thinking when they kiss the icon. It may be simply a show of respect. For some they may be looking for 'magic', like people here who believe wearing a cross or having a plastic Jesus on their dashboard protects them.

Yup, it was supposed to be a sign of respect. There is a lot to see beyond the surface, but Orthodoxy has a lot more unusual surface for a Western/Protestant to have to look beyond, which throws people off.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Hmmm... History shows that there were some churches with the N.T. cannon, yet there were great differences throughout the Church some even using heretical books. The Chuch had the authority and saw the need to set the cannon as a standard. Hence, the councils.

As to your last conspiracy theory statement... Hogwash indeed.

WM

That's why you cannot argue with the RCC apologists. They claim an authority that they cannot prove, yet use that "authority" to tell everyone else they are wrong. It is no more than a cult, and I would be willing to bet they have killed more people than all other agressors, combined.

Are you are saying the martyrdom of true N.T. christians at the hand of the RCC is a myth ?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

So...um.. how many of the NT books did each of the churches have?

I don't know. Which ones did they NOT have ?

 

[Dr. Walter]

So...um.. how many of the NT books did each of the churches have?

The point is you do not know. We do know this, that there were several Pauline epistles that were circulated among the churches before the demise of Paul. To imagine that each church did not make a copy before passing it on to another church presupposes they were not too smart since that was the only apostolic instructions for churches from the apostle.

To imagine that the whole New Testament was not circulated before 150 A.D. is to presuppose the churches were not a very bright bunck of individuals since that was their only authorized source of doctrine and practice.

Rome did not invent Sunday as the Lord's day but simply adapted what was already universallly accepted and practice. THE SAME WITH THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON. However, Rome likes to make the boast they invented both just as Gore claimed he invented the internet - a joke! The churches contained the whole New Testament canon among them and the probability is that the churches which received epistles directed at their particular church kept the original, made copies and they were distributed. The people of God in the New Testament treated the writings the same as those in the Old Testament.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes...........

That about sums it up.

 

[Zenas]

Why is it when we are talking about whether a particular INSTITUTION is "Christian" in regard to its doctrines and practice that you fellas attempt to make it a PERSONAL attack on individual members, as though it is impossible for true christians to be part of paganized institutions???

Maybe they made it personal because you made it personal. Here is what you (Dr. Walter) said in Post No. 7:

Her defenders are no more true "Christians" than she is.

Although you didn't say anything about individual Catholics and Orthodox, it sure looks like you accused Matt Black and WestminsterMan of not being Christian. I think that is against forum rules but I could stand corrected on that point.

 

[WestminsterMan]

snip...

Are you are saying the martyrdom of true N.T. christians at the hand of the RCC is a myth ?

No. Your statement claiming that the RCC burned NT church writings and imprisoned or killed their owners in a myth.

Snip... The original New Testament churches had the books, and the letters. The RCC was busy cvonfiscating these books, and putting the owners in jail or to death.

That's nothing more than a convenient excuse to explain away the lack of any significant proof that their existed any Church for the 1500 years other than the Church founded by Jesus which, like it or not, was the Catholic Church.

WM

 

[billwald]

The primary purpose of the ecumenical creeds was to identify heretics and keep them out of the church.

If there had been a copywrite law in 300 AD the situation because the Orthodox Catholic Church would own the words, "Orthodox," "Catholic," "Church," and "Christian" in the same as the LDS owns, "LDS," "Latter Day Saints," and "Mormon." When the Bishop of Rome pulled out of the Orthodox Christian Church he could not refer to his church as the "Christian Church." Neither could Baptists claim to be the only Christian Church.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

No. Your statement claiming that the RCC burned NT church writings and imprisoned or killed their owners in a myth.

The RCC charged people who privately owned scripture with heresy, and put them to death. If you are going to deny this, then I will waste no more time with you.

That's nothing more than a convenient excuse to explain away the lack of any significant proof that their existed any Church for the 1500 years other than the Church founded by Jesus which, like it or not, was the Catholic Church.

WM

That is the myth. There were N.T. chruches way before the Romans decided to claim authority. To deny this is to deny a whole bunch of N.T. scripture. But that is the RCC way.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

"Experience teaches that there is no other remedy for the evil, but to put heretics (Protestants) to death; for the (Romish) church proceeded gradually and tried every remedy: at first she merely excommunicatied them; afterwards she added a fine; then she banished them; and finally she was constrained to put them to death." -Cardinal Bellarmine

 

[Bro. Curtis]

"The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out." - Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142.