Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?

[Zenas]

Anyone foolish enough to believe in a silly superstition that water will wash away their sins needs an elementary education. Almost 3,000 years ago, Jeremiah mocked such an idea:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 36:25: Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Interesting discussion. Doesn't it say somewhere salvation is through or is it from the jews?

I'm responding to three statements since they all pertain to each other.

First for your statement. Yes and Jesus is from the Jews. But Salvation is based on Jesus alone. People aren't saved by the old covenant but by the pinnacle covenant of Jesus Christ. So, King David isn't saved by being Jewish but his believe in God and his salvation is through his decendent Jesus. The Psalms refer to this. Jesus is Jewish but John the baptist is right that there is no significance in being Jewish alone when it comes to salvation. It is through Jesus Christ.

The Catholic Church's great claim to their origin and authenticity lie in their claim to Peter as their first Pope. There was no vatican at that time.

You can't really have it both ways. It's either the future prophesy of the RCC based in the Vatican or its about ancient Rome. Ancient Rome meets the test. The Vatican does not. AT that time There was no one known as the "Pope" unless you concede that it was not Constantine who founded the RCC.

It makes no sense talking about the slaughter of Christians under Rome because Christians are not the offspring of Israel, and certainly not of Mary

Christians are the offspring of Israel through Jesus Christ. We are adopted heirs. Remember the parable about the feast that people were invited to but they didn't come so the invitation went to everyone else. There is no discussion about the original guest coming to the feast. Christianity was always God's plan of salvation for everyone including Jews.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There are the "fundamentals" of the faith. Almost all evangelicals agree on the fundamentals. We cannot disagree on those. Those are things like the deity of Christ.
Then there are those distinctives that are Baptist distinctives--principles that collectively define us and make us different from the other Protestants, and especially the RCC and Orthodox.
The RCC (and Orthodox) do not believe in the doctrine of soul liberty. In fact they hate such a doctrine and preach against it on a regular basis. I have seen a RCC website devoted to why soul liberty is a heretical doctrine. This is how deep the hatred is. To them it is intolerance of religion; intolerance of anything that goes against their religion; their Catechism; their creeds; their magesterium; their priests; etc. There is no freedom in the RCC (Orthodox, etc.) You are forced to believe whatever they tell you.

Here on the Baptist Board you see many examples of soul liberty--the freedom to agree to disagree over doctrine and still be brothers one with another, and in the same faith. Baptists are both: Calvinists and Arminian; Dispensationalist and Covenantal; Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, and possibly Post-trib. We don't excommunicate people for having a different view on things that are not heretical (outside of the fundamentals of the faith). If they go outside of the Baptist Distinctives, then why would they be a Baptist? Otherwise in many things there is freedom--soul liberty. The principle is taught in Acts 17:11

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The Bereans were called "noble" by Paul because they didn't take what Paul had to say at face value. They took the NT message had, went back to their OT (the Scriptures that they had at that time), and using the Scriptures verified that the words that Paul spoke were true. Only then did they believe them. That is what we are commanded to do.

2Tim.2:15
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Though I appreciate your explination of what you mean by the phrase. And it appeals to my american sensibilities. I don't find the verse in Acts to reflect what you're saying. It just means that the Bereans were verifying what Paul said. To Jewish people if Paul was lying they were not to trust him. (and maybe should stone him to death). also this qualifier was used "more". they both are considered noble because they believe Pauls message (because they were guided by the Holy Spirit) The Bereans were just more so because they followed Judaic teaching with regard to verifying what Paul said. I agree with 2 Timothy. But I'm not sure that has anything to do with Soul Liberty. Just Responsibility.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Christians are the offspring of Israel through Jesus Christ.

Not in the Bible.

We are adopted heirs.

Yes, of God, and fellow heirs with Christ. I can't recall any place where the heir terminology is used with respect to Christians and Israel.

Remember the parable about the feast that people were invited to but they didn't come so the invitation went to everyone else. There is no discussion about the original guest coming to the feast.

Yes, but the point of that is not the point under discussion here.

Christianity was always God's plan of salvation for everyone including Jews.

No, Jesus was always God's plan of salvation. Christianity doesn't save. Jesus does.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Hindus jump into the holy waters of the Ganges River, baptizing themselves in the hopes that their sins will be washed away.

Catholics define born again as baptism where the baptismal waters of regeneration wash away your sins. No difference; only different language.

And the Orthodox--the same as above.
There is no difference between the three. All three believe in baptismal regeneration--the idea that water washes away sin.

Hey class, not only does DHK think St. John the Baptist was a hindu for baptizing the Jews in the Jordan River for the remission of sins; DHK also thinks St. Peter must've came from a hindu background...

What shall we do? Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:37,38)​

ahhhh the fruits of Protestantism at its extreme.

DHK, obviously the class is really lacking in our World Religion knowledge, unlike the professor like yourself are, so I can't speak much about Hinduism (unlike yourself), but I would guess that from an outsider unfamiliar with our Christian Traditions and Hinduism, the outsider would see no difference pictorially of a Baptist preacher in my hometown baptizing someone in our hometown River and a Hindu doing the same in...what, is it India?

So are you...in no subtle terms...(wink, wink)...really suggesting that Christianity is an offshoot of Hinduism?

In XC
-

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Agnus_Dei: you have been a paragon of grace under fire. However, I think you went a little too far above in your personal comments. Normally, you are an example and illustration about how a person can be Orthodox and bear fruit consistent with being a follower of Christ.

Thank you and I do strive to do so and being a message board, with the luxury of typing I should do better. I'm not the only one who's been driven to such remarks by DHK, who by the way is a moderator and a "preacher" and thus really shouldn't provoke. Which is what he is doing, so he's just as guilty as I.

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

Hey class, not only does DHK think St. John the Baptist was a hindu for baptizing the Jews in the Jordan River for the remission of sins; DHK also thinks St. Peter must've came from a hindu background...

What shall we do? Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. (Acts 2:37,38)​

ahhhh the fruits of Protestantism at its extreme.

No, this is the fruit of the RCC (and Orthodox) at its extreme. Using your logic one would have to conclude that:
1. John baptized Jesus because he was a sinner in need of repentance, or
2. As you emphasized "he baptized "for the remission of sins," meaning that all these wicked Pharisees would receive forgiveness sins once they were baptized--the total opposite of what John said.

No. What did John say? He said "Bring forth fruits "meet" or suitable for repentance, and then I will baptize you." First the evidence of baptism was required, and on that basis they were baptized. You have it backwards. They did not receive forgiveness of sins because they were baptized. They had to show proof that they were repentant or John would not baptize them.
Again, according to your theology John baptized Jesus because he was a sinner in need of repentance. What heretical theology this is.

It is no wonder you are confused on Acts 2:38 which confirms the same truth. Peter baptized on the basis or because they already had their sins forgiven. The meaning is simple when you understand the different meanings of various prepositions.

DHK, obviously the class is really lacking in our World Religion knowledge, unlike the professor like yourself are, so I can't speak much about Hinduism (unlike yourself), but I would guess that from an outsider unfamiliar with our Christian Traditions and Hinduism, the outsider would see no difference pictorially of a Baptist preacher in my hometown baptizing someone in our hometown River and a Hindu doing the same in...what, is it India?

Yes, the Ganges River is in India. And the waters of this mucky polluted river are considered holy to them. They plunge into the water, believing that that same water will wash away their sins.
They also follow behind cows, collecting their urine and drinking it. The cows are holy, and urine will supposedly make them more holy. I suppose that would compare to drinking the "actual blood of Christ," if you can actually fathom that you are doing so, another superstition. If you look in the chalice it is nothing but wine. And it certainly cannot make you holy, just like urine cannot make you holy. Why all the superstitions? Yes, comparisons can be made. Another valid comparison is praying to the dead, like the Shintos do in Japan. You may consider their spirits alive in heaven. So do the Shintos consider the spirits of their dead ancestors alive. So what is the difference? You are both praying to the spirits of dead people, a practice condemned in the Bible. Perhaps if you would see that these practices are both condemned in the Bible and practiced by pagans it would wake you up some.

So are you...in no subtle terms...(wink, wink)...really suggesting that Christianity is an offshoot of Hinduism? -

No, it is a pagan religion that has pagan practices. The pagan practices were introduced into Christianity by a pagan called Constantine in the fourth century who made a false profession of Christianity for his own political means.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

The fact DHK, is that throughout the Holy Scripture we see a picture of people being Baptized in water, be in a creek, a river or a dirty stinky cow pond, we see it and the language is there...for the remission of sins.

If you say the Hindus splash around in the Ganges river, for cleansing of sins, then that's what they do...Whoop Dee Doo, who really cares about what the Hindu's do in vane!!

There's hundreds of thousands of religions in the world DHK...I'm a Christian DHK, because

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of the Father before all worlds,
Light of Light, very God of very God,
begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit
and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
and suffered and was buried;
and rose again on the third day
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.​

So DHK, if you can prove to the class that the Hindu religion believes all points noted above as such, then I will concede, we're all Hindu's

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

The fact DHK, is that throughout the Holy Scripture we see a picture of people being Baptized in water, be in a creek, a river or a dirty stinky cow pond, we see it and the language is there...for the remission of sins.

If you say the Hindus splash around in the Ganges river, for cleansing of sins, then that's what they do...Whoop Dee Doo, who really cares about what the Hindu's do in vane!!

There's hundreds of thousands of religions in the world DHK...I'm a Christian DHK, because

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of the Father before all worlds,
Light of Light, very God of very God,
begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit
and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
and suffered and was buried;
and rose again on the third day
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.​

So DHK, if you can prove to the class that the Hindu religion believes all points noted above as such, then I will concede, we're all Hindu's

In XC
-

No, you are not a Christian because you believe those things. I believed those things for 20 years and was not a Christian. The recitation of a prayer or creed does not make anyone a Christian. Head knowledge does not make one a Christian. One needs to be saved. Only Christ can save; not knowledge. Only Christ can wash away sin; not water; not baptism. Only faith in the sacrificial work of Christ can save; not works. If you determine to put your faith in the works of a religion (including baptism and sacraments) you cannot be saved. It is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin; not the waters of baptism. To believe that the waters of baptism washes away sin is just as pagan a belief as the Hindus believe. Head knowledge about Christ is totally irrelevant to becoming a Christian. True Christianity is not a religion; it is a relationship.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

No, you are not a Christian because you believe those things.

The resident villiage Pope has spoken...you're more Roman Catholic than you think...:thumbs:

In XC
-

 

[DHK]

The resident villiage Pope has spoken...you're more Roman Catholic than you think...:thumbs:

In XC
-

I know of Muslim that memorized the NT.
According to your logic that would make him a Christian, right?

 

[Darron Steele]

I know of Muslim that memorized the NT.
According to your logic that would make him a Christian, right?

DHK: please understand that I mean this with no intent to belittle you or make you look bad.

I do not understand what prompted this comment. Agnus_Dei never alleged that knowing a creed made one a Christian. He alleged that believing that creed made one a non-Hindu.

I just do not see how that comment was relevant to anything that had actually been posted.

Is it possible that your bad feelings about Catholicism have put you in a frenzy, and you are saying things without thinking them through? Would you at least consider that possibility?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I know of Muslim that memorized the NT.
According to your logic that would make him a Christian, right?

Don't know Papa! Shed you wisdom upon the class and tell us.

In XC
-

 

[Darron Steele]

Don't know Papa! Shed you wisdom upon the class and tell us.

In XC
-

Agnus_Dei, would you please just cool it? I understand that DHK is getting you riled up. Would you please stop letting him bring out the worst in you?

This board is an Internet discussion board. It is not worth what this has turned into.

 

[DHK]

I do not understand what prompted this comment. Agnus_Dei never alleged that knowing a creed made one a Christian. He alleged that believing that creed made one a non-Hindu.

This is what was said:

There's hundreds of thousands of religions in the world DHK...I'm a Christian DHK, because:
(Creed to follow)

Sorry, but one is not a Christian because he or she can recite or believe in a Creed. That doesn't cut it. I am saved because I trusted Christ as my Saviour and have an on-going relationship with Him. It is his blood that washed away my sin, not the waters of baptism. This Agnus has refused to acknowledge. His is a system of works-based religion.
Only Christ can saved. One is not saved because of a Creed, which is exactly what Agnus said--that one is saved by a Creed.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

I am saved because I trusted Christ as my Saviour and have an on-going relationship with Him.

Emphasis mine. Are you not now the one adding to faith? Just wondering...

 

[DHK]

I am saved because I trusted Christ as my Saviour and have an on-going relationship with Him.

Emphasis mine. Are you not now the one adding to faith? Just wondering...

Sorry for the confusion. I am saved because I trusted Christ as my Saviour (for by grace through faith are ye saved and not of works), and therefore (as a consequence), I have an on-going relationship with Him (Jesus Christ).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not in the Bible......Yes, of God, and fellow heirs with Christ. I can't recall any place where the heir terminology is used with respect to Christians and Israel.

Yeah sure.

6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Yes, but the point of that is not the point under discussion here.

It is very much because it directly relates to Judaism with regard to Christianity.

No, Jesus was always God's plan of salvation. Christianity doesn't save. Jesus does.

You say TOmato; I say TomAto. Christianity or Christians are those who believe and follow Jesus. Salvation is the same for us all. Whether Greek or Jew.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yeah sure.

I am quite serious. You said "Christians are the offspring of Israel through Christ." Where does the Bible say anything about Christians being the offspring of Israel?

You say TOmato; I say TomAto. Christianity or Christians are those who believe and follow Jesus. Salvation is the same for us all. Whether Greek or Jew.

Certainly. But salvation still doesn't come from christianity but from Christ.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I am quite serious. You said "Christians are the offspring of Israel through Christ." Where does the Bible say anything about Christians being the offspring of Israel?
Certainly. But salvation still doesn't come from christianity but from Christ.

Just to reitterate

6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

All believers in Jesus (or Christians) are children of Abraham who is the father of Jacob or Israel. We are the true inheretors. Not Judaism. Salvation is Christianity. Let me put it this way Salvation is from Jesus those who believe in Jesus are Christians you cannot separate Christianity (those who are saved) from Jesus unless its the faithless and I wouldn't call them christians. But unbelievers or those not saved or not elect.