Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?

[Pastor Larry]

So how do you account for the fact that (in so far as anyone is able to judge the salvation of another) they are saved, then?

I don't account for it. The truth is that we can draw some conclusions about someone's spiritual state by what they believe and what they do. I do not know these men. All I have is your testimony that they are priests in the RCC. But that standard, using the Scriptures, we can draw some conclusions.

I have been clear Matt: If they believe what the RCC teaches, they are not saved. How can that be disputed by anyone with even a remote understanding of the Bible and the RCC doctrine? I have said many times before that someone in the RCC might be truly saved, but it is not because of what the RCC teaches.

The RCC teaches a false gospel. The RCC teaching can turn out moral people who are good people, good neighbors, good husbands and wives, good parents, good employees, good employers etc. The RCC teaching can turn out people who know the truth about God himself and some facets of biblical teaching. The RCC teaching can turn out people who love others and do what is good. It cannot turn out true believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I don't believe you can believe in infused righteousness and Purgatory and be saved, as both of these things necessitate a denial of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't account for it. The truth is that we can draw some conclusions about someone's spiritual state by what they believe and what they do. I do not know these men. All I have is your testimony that they are priests in the RCC. But that standard, using the Scriptures, we can draw some conclusions.

I have been clear Matt: If they believe what the RCC teaches, they are not saved. How can that be disputed by anyone with even a remote understanding of the Bible and the RCC doctrine? I have said many times before that someone in the RCC might be truly saved, but it is not because of what the RCC teaches.

The RCC teaches a false gospel. The RCC teaching can turn out moral people who are good people, good neighbors, good husbands and wives, good parents, good employees, good employers etc. The RCC teaching can turn out people who know the truth about God himself and some facets of biblical teaching. The RCC teaching can turn out people who love others and do what is good. It cannot turn out true believers in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Weird. Surreal. What are you saying? A couple of things here:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

From your discource it seems the 2nd law is being fulfilled. However, you must argue that the first isn't. How can you determine that? Also how about these verses?

16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'[c]

We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved

30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." 32Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. 33At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized.

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

It seems to me that Catholics and Orthodox Claim these verses

 

[Pastor Larry]

Weird. Surreal.

Why?

What are you saying?

What wasn’t clear? I will be glad to try to clarify.

From your discource it seems the 2nd law is being fulfilled. However, you must argue that the first isn't. How can you determine that?

By what they believe. Again, I am not commenting on their individual beliefs. I am commenting on what the RCC teaches.
However, the 2nd commandment cannot truly be fulfilled apart from the first commandment because true love for neighbors springs from the gospel (John 13:35; 1 John 4:10-11). Islam produces moral people who love their neighbors, as do Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc. But we have no problem recognizing that they don't truly love God. It is strange though that when we come to the RCC, we so easily turn a blind (or confused) eye to what they actually teach.

Also how about these verses? … It seems to me that Catholics and Orthodox Claim these verses

There’s no doubt they claim them. But that is far different than actually believing them for what they say. The Catholics have added to the meaning of them with things like infused righteousness and sacramental communication of grace.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I don't believe you can believe in infused righteousness and Purgatory and be saved, as both of these things necessitate a denial of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement.

From my understanding of infused righteousness is the term we are specifically is "made". As in "made righteous" rather than a legal term and just "declaired righteous". Either way Catholics claim that it is still Christ who is "making" them righteous through out their lives. We would say that we are being perfected in Christ as our lives continue. Whats the difference? I'm not that knowledgable on purgatory but a family member indicated that it can be compared to each renewal of the covenants through out the history of the bible Ie... the firery brand that went through the split cow for Abraham, the firery bush, the pillar of fire, the tongues of fires on pentecost; where God's presence is present which in its very nature rids everything else that is not God. That was their explanation. I don't understand it but there you go.

 

[Pastor Larry]

From my understanding of infused righteousness is the term we are specifically is "made". As in "made righteous" rather than a legal term and just "declaired righteous".

Yes, but that is a key difference, first because it contradicts what the word means and second because it destroys the biblical teaching on sin and righteousness

Either way Catholics claim that it is still Christ who is "making" them righteous through out their lives.

yes but they are justified based on the works that result out of the infused righteousness. They attribute those works to Christ, but it is still works of the human.

We would say that we are being perfected in Christ as our lives continue. Whats the difference?

The difference is easy:

Bible: Faith = Justification + Obedience
RCC: Faith + Obedience = Justification.

Again, I would recommend you get Sproul's book "Faith Alone." He is very clear on this. Or you can go to his website and listen to him talk about it.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

From my understanding of infused righteousness is the term we are specifically is "made". As in "made righteous" rather than a legal term and just "declaired righteous". Either way Catholics claim that it is still Christ who is "making" them righteous through out their lives. We would say that we are being perfected in Christ as our lives continue. Whats the difference?

There is a huge difference.

First of all, we are not "being perfected...as our lives continue". The book of Hebrews tells us that Christ has perfected forever those whom He has sanctified.

Second, you've got to remember that Christians believe that we are made righteous in Christ through repentence and faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross.

Catholics believe that they're made righteous in Christ through membership in their church and adherence to it's salvific rituals. Hence, grace earned by works.

The third difference is that, while Hebrews tells us that we're perfected forever, the Catholic heresy of infused righteousness teaches that they are righteous only until they commit another sin, in which case they must go to confession and partake in the Eucharist to be made righteous again.

While Catholics believe that God makes them righteous through their works, the Bible is very clear that no works can save us and that we are hopelessly unrighteous. Because of that, we must have the Christ's righteousness imputed to us. Hence, imputed vs. infused righteousness.

Think of infused righteousness as a kind of "righteousness varnish" God paints on Catholics. Each time they sin, the varnish wears away until they're once again unrighteous. They must work and participate in Catholic rituals to keep up their righteousness.

I'm not that knowledgable on purgatory but a family member indicated that it can be compared to each renewal of the covenants through out the history of the bible Ie... the firery brand that went through the split cow for Abraham, the firery bush, the pillar of fire, the tongues of fires on pentecost; where God's presence is present which in its very nature rids everything else that is not God. That was their explanation. I don't understand it but there you go.

I'm not really sure how your relative came up with those things, but God's presence does not rid everything else that is not God.

God is omnipresent, so obviously God's presence is a lot of places where Ungodly things are going on.

Several of the things you listed that your relative told you about have nothing to do with cleansing or covering of sin, but are simply ways that God chose to communicate with us.

Do me a favor, would you? I'm leaving to go out of town for the weekend. Would you please read Romans chapters 5-7 and tell me what you think of those and tell me if you can find the Catholic doctrine of infused righteousness in them so I can talk to you about that when I get back.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There is a huge difference.

First of all, we are not "being perfected...as our lives continue". The book of Hebrews tells us that Christ has perfected forever those whom He has sanctified.

Second, you've got to remember that Christians believe that we are made righteous in Christ through repentence and faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross.

Catholics believe that they're made righteous in Christ through membership in their church and adherence to it's salvific rituals. Hence, grace earned by works.

The third difference is that, while Hebrews tells us that we're perfected forever, the Catholic heresy of infused righteousness teaches that they are righteous only until they commit another sin, in which case they must go to confession and partake in the Eucharist to be made righteous again.

While Catholics believe that God makes them righteous through their works, the Bible is very clear that no works can save us and that we are hopelessly unrighteous. Because of that, we must have the Christ's righteousness imputed to us. Hence, imputed vs. infused righteousness.

Think of infused righteousness as a kind of "righteousness varnish" God paints on Catholics. Each time they sin, the varnish wears away until they're once again unrighteous. They must work and participate in Catholic rituals to keep up their righteousness.



I'm not really sure how your relative came up with those things, but God's presence does not rid everything else that is not God.

God is omnipresent, so obviously God's presence is a lot of places where Ungodly things are going on.

Several of the things you listed that your relative told you about have nothing to do with cleansing or covering of sin, but are simply ways that God chose to communicate with us.

Do me a favor, would you? I'm leaving to go out of town for the weekend. Would you please read Romans chapters 5-7 and tell me what you think of those and tell me if you can find the Catholic doctrine of infused righteousness in them so I can talk to you about that when I get back.

Yeah sure as long as you don't mind me reading Pauls other writings. Also with with your Hebrews refference here :

14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

You kind of left out "has made Perfect" those who are being made holy. completion with a continuation. Sounds more like a process. It seems that there is a focus on this aspect by your statment:

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more."

Forgetting quickly what is said right after

26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God

So how do you deal with the problem of sin after Justification? Since I've been saved I've sinned. So when I refer to being perfected I'm referring to this verse:

1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

and again here:

24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

 

[DHK]

Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

We know from Scripture that there is only one God.

God is a trinity--three persons in one God, which the Catholics purport to believe.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Christ is deity
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

So far the Catholic Church agrees, at least in theory.

But where the Catholic Church disagrees in practice is that they have made Mary another god in their practice. They are no better than the Hindus. They have become polytheistic in their practice. They pray to Mary as a god. They expect Mary to answer their prayers as a god. They expect Mary to intercede on behalf of Jesus Christ in their prayers. They prefer to go to Mary rather than Jesus Christ in their prayers. Mary is considered omnipresent and omniscient, attributes that belong only to God.

There is a movement afoot in the Catholic Church to make Mary officially a part of the trinity.

Is this the God we serve?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

We know from Scripture that there is only one God.

God is a trinity--three persons in one God, which the Catholics purport to believe.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Christ is deity
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

So far the Catholic Church agrees, at least in theory.

But where the Catholic Church disagrees in practice is that they have made Mary another god in their practice. They are no better than the Hindus. They have become polytheistic in their practice. They pray to Mary as a god. They expect Mary to answer their prayers as a god. They expect Mary to intercede on behalf of Jesus Christ in their prayers. They prefer to go to Mary rather than Jesus Christ in their prayers. Mary is considered omnipresent and omniscient, attributes that belong only to God.

There is a movement afoot in the Catholic Church to make Mary officially a part of the trinity.

Is this the God we serve?

See this is confusing.

The Catholic church (I'm not certain about Orthodox) proclaims the Nicean creed which we pretty much agree with exception (holy catholic and apostolic church). We agree with the incarnation, the trinity, redemption, resurrection. But then there is the Mary issue. The Church does not teach Mary is God. Yet there are many Catholic who pray to her. Yet not one of them affirms that She is god. Now studing History Theotokos was a term to affirm Jesus' divinity not Mary's. How did praying to Mary become a prominant issue for the Church? Bringing up this very question to my father (who is Jesuit trained in that he studied at a Jesuit university) he states that all saved believers are alive in christ even when their bodies are dead. That they are still members of the body or the Church in which case they pray for us like I may pray for another church member who needs prayer. He just told me that its not that Mary is everywhere but that God presents her with request for her to pray about. Kind of like a prayer chain. The other saints likewise.

So the RCC afirms one thing but everyone practices something else? Kinda like baptist that smoke just outside the back door. (that was actually a joke but there are several members of my church that do just that! I tease them about their bodies being temples and all. They're actually good men all with a nasty habbit but they know that.)

So where is the real catholic church in what they proclaim or how their practitioners practice the faith? And can there be practitioners who do not look at Mary as a god and hold to the creed and participate in their church?

 

[billwald]

You all have read the new Catholic Catechism? I didn't notice any important errors in it.

 

[historyb]

I too fell away from the RCC but have returned because I attend the Tridentine Mass.....there is an Epistle and Gospel reading each day of the year and because the Mass is offered in Latin...on a Sunday the Epistle and Gospel are then repeated in English for those who do not have a Daily Missal. The sermon is based on these readings.At the end of the Mass the concluding Gospel reading is from John 1:1-14

During Mass there is any number of portions of the Bible incorporated into the structure of the Mass.

Even then the Gospel is not preached. I was a convert to Catholicism and God brought me out.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Even then the Gospel is not preached. I was a convert to Catholicism and God brought me out.

Why did you convert to Catholicism? Where you an athiest previously?

 

[DHK]

See this is confusing.

The Catholic church (I'm not certain about Orthodox) proclaims the Nicean creed which we pretty much agree with exception (holy catholic and apostolic church). We agree with the incarnation, the trinity, redemption, resurrection. But then there is the Mary issue.

Never mind the Nicean creed. That becomes irrelevant in the light of the Catholic Catechism, the document by which the RCC must be judged by.

The Church does not teach Mary is God. Yet there are many Catholic who pray to her. Yet not one of them affirms that She is god.

Affirmation and practice are two different things. They divide up the meanings of the word "worship" also, splitting hairs on it. But worship is worship. And the fact is that all worship belongs to God. They worship Mary as a god. That is blasphemy whether they want to admit it or not.
The same is true with transubstantiation--the actual changing of the wine into blood; the bread into the body of Christ--an impossibility, and a butchering of Scripture.
Likewise: indulgences, the teaching of purgatory, baptismal regeneration, confession of sin to a priest, praying to "saints" which is idolatry. The Lord calls praying to the dead (even if they consider them alive) is necromancy--condemned in the Scriptures. There are many more pagan practices which the RCC have which put this organization outside the realm of Christianity. It is pagan not Christian.

Now studing History Theotokos was a term to affirm Jesus' divinity not Mary's.

Study more of the doctrine of theotokos. We had a thread on it previously. It is a heretical doctrine.

How did praying to Mary become a prominant issue for the Church? Bringing up this very question to my father (who is Jesuit trained in that he studied at a Jesuit university) he states that all saved believers are alive in christ even when their bodies are dead.

If you are married and your wife dies, do you go to the cemetary and pray to her? I hope not. That is what the pagans do. She is dead. That is why we hold a funeral service. She is not alive, and will not be until the resurrection takes place. It is wrong to pray to the dead.

That they are still members of the body or the Church

My dead mother is not still a member of the body of the church; she is dead.

in which case they pray for us like I may pray for another church member who needs prayer.

A dead person cannot pray. And to pray for a dead or to a dead person is heresy.

He just told me that its not that Mary is everywhere but that God presents her with request for her to pray about. Kind of like a prayer chain. The other saints likewise.

Then he is deceived. How can Mary hear the prayers of Catholics in India and the prayers of Catholics in the U.S. at the same time unless she is in both places at the same time. She would have to be omnipresent to do that. Only God has that power. Satan does not have that power either. Satan is ubiquitous. He seems to be everywhere, but can only be in one place at one time. He sends his demons everywhere to do his bidding. Who does Mary send every where to do her bidding? Does she have power over all the angels? Or power over the omnipresent Christ to do her bidding. This is ludicrous.

So the RCC afirms one thing but everyone practices something else? Kinda like baptist that smoke just outside the back door. (that was actually a joke but there are several members of my church that do just that! I tease them about their bodies being temples and all. They're actually good men all with a nasty habbit but they know that.)

Both Catholics and Baptists have sinful practices. We are not speaking of sin, but of doctrine. The RCC beleives in doctrine that sends people to Hell.

So where is the real catholic church in what they proclaim or how their practitioners practice the faith? And can there be practitioners who do not look at Mary as a god and hold to the creed and participate in their church?

What they say and what they do according to the Bible are two different things. They practice idolatry and pray to idols. They treat Mary as a god, and worship her as a god. Their religion is a religion of works, a religion that will send people to Hell; for only belief in the work of Christ by faith and faith alone can save. They hate that message.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Never mind the Nicean creed. That becomes irrelevant in the light of the Catholic Catechism, the document by which the RCC must be judged by.

Their Catechism is organized by the Creed. The creed is what they say every church service the Creed is their... well... Creed. They must be judge based on how they follow their creed.

Affirmation and practice are two different things

Yes. I can agree with this

Both Catholics and Baptists have sinful practices.

Yep.

If you are married and your wife dies.... She is dead

Sorry couldn't resist.

My dead mother is not still a member of the body of the church; she is dead

A dead person cannot pray

4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

Last I heard the 12 sons of Jacob and the 12 Apostles were all dead yet here they are sitting around the throne...

10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
to receive glory and honor and power,
for you created all things,
and by your will they were created
and have their being."

And here they are again worshiping ( a form of prayer?) But their dead. Because they died. dead.

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

They're dead and they're talking to God but they can't because they're dead. I think your perspective about those who have fallen asleep in Christ is a tad off. It seems they're very much involved in speaking with God and knowing whats going on and talking about it. Now I'm not advocating praying to them just I don't like the nightmare of being a christian and dead. I plan on being in God's presence. How about you?

Their religion is a religion of works, a religion that will send people to Hell; for only belief in the work of Christ by faith and faith alone can save.

So all I need to do is have faith and its done? I don't need to say the sinners prayer. I don't need to repent. I can keep living in my sinful life? Because I have faith in Jesus? As long as I truely have faith in Jesus because its faith alone? What?

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

and again

18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?

In othwords Faith in Action. Even the theif on the Cross did something. He witnessed of Christ. He said to Remember him when Jesus came into his kingdom. So obviously it has to be Faith in Action. Just believing is a waste unless its followed by action.

 

[Zenas]

The same is true with transubstantiation--the actual changing of the wine into blood; the bread into the body of Christ--an impossibility, and a butchering of Scripture.

An impossibility? You don't think God could do that?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

My dead mother is not still a member of the body of the church; she is dead.

Please DHK pray you produce Holy Scripture that states once a Christian dies they cease to be part of the Church. Christ is Risen, trampling down death by death. The barrier between living and dead has been eliminated due to the Resurrection of Christ. Those who are departed are just as much with us and just as much a part of the Church as those who we see living on this earth. There is no longer any separation.

What you spout is heresy, how on earth are you still a Moderator here is beyond me...what a sad state of being you must live all alone.

In XC
-

 

[Zenas]

My dead mother is not still a member of the body of the church; she is dead.

A dead person cannot pray. And to pray for a dead or to a dead person is heresy.

Then he is deceived. How can Mary hear the prayers of Catholics in India and the prayers of Catholics in the U.S. at the same time unless she is in both places at the same time. She would have to be omnipresent to do that. Only God has that power. Satan does not have that power either. Satan is ubiquitous. He seems to be everywhere, but can only be in one place at one time. He sends his demons everywhere to do his bidding. Who does Mary send every where to do her bidding? Does she have power over all the angels? Or power over the omnipresent Christ to do her bidding. This is ludicrous.

In view of this post, DHK, I am curious as to your views concerning those who die in Christ.

Do you think their souls sleep until the return of Christ?

Do you think they go immediately to Heaven when they die?

Either way, do you think we will exist throughout eternity with pretty much the same senses and abilities we mortals now have?

Also, what about those who do not die in Christ? Do you believe they go straight to Hell or that they sleep until the return of Christ to be sentenced to Hell by Him?

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Catholic church (I'm not certain about Orthodox) proclaims the Nicean creed which we pretty much agree with exception (holy catholic and apostolic church). We agree with the incarnation, the trinity, redemption, resurrection.

Actually we agree with the holy catholic and apostolic church. It's a small "c" catholic meaning "universal," not a capital "C." However, we don't agree on redemption and justification. Those are major issues which separate the Catholic church from the gospel and the catholic church.

 

[DHK]

Please DHK pray you produce Holy Scripture that states once a Christian dies they cease to be part of the Church. Christ is Risen, trampling down death by death. The barrier between living and dead has been eliminated due to the Resurrection of Christ. Those who are departed are just as much with us and just as much a part of the Church as those who we see living on this earth. There is no longer any separation.

What you spout is heresy, how on earth are you still a Moderator here is beyond me...what a sad state of being you must live all alone.

In XC
-

What a funny post coming from you Agnus.
You were on your way to becoming a Catholic and changed directions to being an almost-Catholic, er, Orthodox (Catholic without the Pope), but essentially the same thing.
You accuse me of heresy, and naturally so, for almost everything the Orthodox Church believes is at direct odds with fundamental and evangelical Christianity. In other words it is your ungodly religion that is heretical. It is a religion of works. Works do not save. Faith in Christ does, which you do not believe. You have a religion of works which is directly opposed to the Bible. This is not an "Orthodox Board," Agnus. You are a guest at a Baptist Board. How do you think that you can get away with calling Baptist doctrine, heresy when you are posting on a Baptist Board?