Are there Catholics and Orthodox that are practicing and saved?

[Agnus_Dei]

You are a guest at a Baptist Board. How do you think that you can get away with calling Baptist doctrine, heresy when you are posting on a Baptist Board?

I'd really be interested in seeing this "Baptist Doctrine" DHK, which should, like any good 'ol Baptist doctrine be backed up fully with Holy Scripture...Get busy DHK...the class awaits...

In XC
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[Jedi Knight]

John 10:5 "They will never follow a stranger, but will run away from him because they do not recognize the voice of strangers." If someone gets saved and are a part of the Roman Catholic Church I believe God will lead them out. Romans 10:3 "For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God." To me this sums up the Roman C Church.

 

[EdSutton]

A dead person cannot pray.

Ol' Jonah might wanna' argue with you about that.

Ed

 

[Jedi Knight]

Ol' Jonah might wanna' argue with you about that.

Ed

Did Jonah die in the belly of the Fish? I don't buy that.....not one bite!:laugh:

 

[historyb]

Why did you convert to Catholicism? Where you an atheist previously?

No quite the opposite, I had been in Church literally all my life. When I was young it was what you did on Sunday's, when I went to Vanguard University (a Christian College) my professor challenged us to see if what we believed was really something we owned or a parroted version of what our parents believed.

Three of us took the challenge and I started my journey than in earnest, what did I believe and why? These were question I asked myself and I researched, here I must pause and say that I have a great love for History which played a big part in what happened next, went to the library and devoured everything I could find about Christianity and I resolved that I believed closet to Catholicism. Through a set of circumstances I had to leave college and I took the opportunity to visit a Catholic Church and I got hit by the history of the place and that more than any thing else facilitated my conversion.

Now I did say my beliefs were closest to Catholicism, but there was still some things I could not reconcile with the Gospel. The works based system and the idea that Christ death did not pay completely for our sins were the main ones. However I was taken in by the history of the place and the practices and I converted pushing my convictions down. I was okay for a while and enjoyed myself in my new found religion and about this time two things happened, God brought me my wife and the doubts came back strong.

So I went back and forth, my wife was put through a lot but she stuck by me. First I would go to a Christian Church than back to Catholicism, I was worried that I found the truth than I would be worried I didn't. Finally one day I heard Dr. D. James Kennedy on and I listened and was strongly convicted by the message and completely gave up my Catholicism and followed Christ.

That is a short synopsis of my story.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No quite the opposite, I had been in Church literally all my life. When I was young it was what you did on Sunday's, when I went to Vanguard University (a Christian College) my professor challenged us to see if what we believed was really something we owned or a parroted version of what our parents believed.

Three of us took the challenge and I started my journey than in earnest, what did I believe and why? These were question I asked myself and I researched, here I must pause and say that I have a great love for History which played a big part in what happened next, went to the library and devoured everything I could find about Christianity and I resolved that I believed closet to Catholicism. Through a set of circumstances I had to leave college and I took the opportunity to visit a Catholic Church and I got hit by the history of the place and that more than any thing else facilitated my conversion.

Now I did say my beliefs were closest to Catholicism, but there was still some things I could not reconcile with the Gospel. The works based system and the idea that Christ death did not pay completely for our sins were the main ones. However I was taken in by the history of the place and the practices and I converted pushing my convictions down. I was okay for a while and enjoyed myself in my new found religion and about this time two things happened, God brought me my wife and the doubts came back strong.

So I went back and forth, my wife was put through a lot but she stuck by me. First I would go to a Christian Church than back to Catholicism, I was worried that I found the truth than I would be worried I didn't. Finally one day I heard Dr. D. James Kennedy on and I listened and was strongly convicted by the message and completely gave up my Catholicism and followed Christ.

That is a short synopsis of my story.

Very Good. Thanks.

 

[DHK]

Please DHK pray you produce Holy Scripture that states once a Christian dies they cease to be part of the Church.

First, the Bible has only one meaning for church (ekklesia), and that is "assembly." Every epistle that Paul wrote was written either to a local church or to the pastor of a local church. This is God's ordained institution that he is using for this day and age. The church (ekklesia) always refers to a local church. To refer to a collective body of believers it is more accurate to refer to them as "the family of God," or the "Bride of Christ," which all believers are a part of. There are churches, but no "universal church," or "invisible church." Therefore, when my mother died, or when any person dies, they cease to be part of the church, the assembly. They are buried, and not in my church, or in the building where our church meets.

Christ is Risen, trampling down death by death. The barrier between living and dead has been eliminated due to the Resurrection of Christ.

Says who? By what means do you go back and forth from earth to heaven? Is it a special form of astral-travel? Do you believe in UFO's, a special kind maybe? Tell more of these experiences that you have of travel where the "barrier between death and living has been eliminiated." I didn't know that Science Fiction was in the Bible.

Those who are departed are just as much with us and just as much a part of the Church as those who we see living on this earth. There is no longer any separation.

I was at the funeral of my mother. I went to the cemetary. I saw her buried. She no longer visits our house; or us, hers. She is dead. It would be a lie to say "she is just as much with us...etc." And, "There is no longer any separation," Those who believe that are in eastern religions, like Shintoism. They leave out food for their dead ancestors. Do you also do the same? You write as though you belong to Shintoism, more than you are a Christian. Is this the case?

What you spout is heresy, how on earth are you still a Moderator here is beyond me...what a sad state of being you must live all alone.
In XC
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This is quite the emotional personal accusation, coming from one who claims to be from the Orthodox, but writes like one from Shintoism.

 

[Jedi Knight]

WOW this topic seems to be derailed...but I cannot resist this last few. When a person dies"christian" they go to be with the Lord. When a lost person dies they go in to Hell wait judgment day. I do believe in one body of believers"alive or dead" in Christ.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

First, the Bible has only one meaning for church (ekklesia), and that is "assembly." Every epistle that Paul wrote was written either to a local church or to the pastor of a local church. This is God's ordained institution that he is using for this day and age. The church (ekklesia) always refers to a local church. To refer to a collective body of believers it is more accurate to refer to them as "the family of God," or the "Bride of Christ," which all believers are a part of. There are churches, but no "universal church," or "invisible church." Therefore, when my mother died, or when any person dies, they cease to be part of the church, the assembly. They are buried, and not in my church, or in the building where our church meets.

Says who? By what means do you go back and forth from earth to heaven? Is it a special form of astral-travel? Do you believe in UFO's, a special kind maybe? Tell more of these experiences that you have of travel where the "barrier between death and living has been eliminiated." I didn't know that Science Fiction was in the Bible.

I was at the funeral of my mother. I went to the cemetary. I saw her buried. She no longer visits our house; or us, hers. She is dead. It would be a lie to say "she is just as much with us...etc." And, "There is no longer any separation," Those who believe that are in eastern religions, like Shintoism. They leave out food for their dead ancestors. Do you also do the same? You write as though you belong to Shintoism, more than you are a Christian. Is this the case?

This is quite the emotional personal accusation, coming from one who claims to be from the Orthodox, but writes like one from Shintoism.

Really DHK, cut the crap...again I ask that you produce the "Baptist Doctrine" which says that once a Christian dies they are no longer a part of the Church...it's simple DHK...save us the lip service and just back up your claims DHK or recant them...We really don't care what YOU believe personally...

I've been a Baptist abet a former one my whole life and NEVER have I heard such stuff...Is this what they teach in Canada?

In XC
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[Zenas]

We really don't care what YOU believe personally...

I care, and would really appreciate an answer to the questions I raised in Post No. 58.

 

[DHK]

In view of this post, DHK, I am curious as to your views concerning those who die in Christ.

Do you think their souls sleep until the return of Christ?

No, I don't believe in soul sleep as the SDA do.
Paul said: "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
Paul taught that when one dies, the body is buried, and the spirit goes to be with the Lord.

Do you think they go immediately to Heaven when they die?

Jesus said to the thief on the cross: "Today you shall be with me in paradise." I believe he meant what he said. (Though he spoke of his spirit and not his body).

Either way, do you think we will exist throughout eternity with pretty much the same senses and abilities we mortals now have?

In Romans 8, it tells that we wait for the redemption of our bodies.
In 1John 3, it says:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
--As the verse says: we do not know what awaits for us in heaven. We do not know how much knowledge we will have, though it will be more than we have now.
One thing we do know: we will not have the attributes of God such as omniscience. In other words, even throughout all eternity we will be learning. Only God is omniscient. Our knowledge is always limited.
"This mortality shall put on immortality."

Also, what about those who do not die in Christ? Do you believe they go straight to Hell or that they sleep until the return of Christ to be sentenced to Hell by Him?

If you believe in Christ you go straight to heaven; if not you go straight to hell. The Bible is clear on that. I never said anything different.

Where the Catholic Church differs is that somehow the "spirits" in heaven still have a connection with those of us on earth. They don't. Such practice of communication is necromancy--a practice condemned in the Bible. We may consider the dead, as having died, and their spirits having gone to heaven, but they are still dead. Why pray to the dead? It is a matter of semantics here. But praying to the spirits of the dead is what pagan religions do. It is condemned by the Bible. It is the occult, demonism, etc. We do not communicate with the dead--"saved or unsaved." It is wrong. Once a person has passed from this life they cannot come back; they cannot hear our prayers; it is idolatry to pray to them; it is idolatry always to pray to anyone else but God.

 

[Jedi Knight]

'1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
--As the verse says: we do not know what awaits for us in heaven." I agree what you said EXCEPT THIS ONE. This was Paul quoting from Isaiah 64:4 wasn't talking about Heaven. That said .....your still solid in my book!:thumbs:

 

[Ingo Breuer]

I think it is heresy to say "Before the foundation of the world GOD chose those whom HE would Save through the LORD JESUS CHRIST.Before the foundation of the world GOD chose those whom HE would Save through the LORD JESUS CHRIST."

I hope everybody understands that God does not make a choice whom he saves and whom he condemns to hell. That decision is entirey man's responsibility. God always puts man before a choice. Man is a free moral agent. The saving work in the new bith is God's work but the choice is yours. If God chose whom he would save, then of course he would choose all of humanity since the thought of everlasting hellfire is so endlessly depressing and painful. Can you imagine a dear loved one or yourself in hell because God did not choose you to get saved? What kind of God is that? What love is this? Catholics believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the virgin birth, miracles and divinity of Christ. So where is the problem of them getting saved? They might not go to the extreme of some Baptists who claim that one needs to "make an altar to pray through" in order to get saved. Where is that in the Bibe? So even among Baptists you find some doctrinal weirdness. Nut just among Catholics. I worry about some Baptists who put pride in their lineage John the Baptist instead of putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone. So some Baptist make a similiar mistake that some Catholics make who put more stock in their lineage to Peter instead of simply trusting Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

[annsni]

Really DHK, cut the crap...again I ask that you produce the "Baptist Doctrine" which says that once a Christian dies they are no longer a part of the Church...it's simple DHK...save us the lip service and just back up your claims DHK or recant them...We really don't care what YOU believe personally...

I've been a Baptist abet a former one my whole life and NEVER have I heard such stuff...Is this what they teach in Canada?

In XC
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Nice Christian response. Is this glorifying to God?

Since I can't sleep, I'll respond to this.

It is simple. There is no Scripture that says when a person dies, he continues to be part of the 'church'. OK - I just went through and did a search on BibleGateway on 'death' and 'church' and didn't find any reference to the church including those who are dead. Can you please show me something in Scripture that might state your case?

 

[annsni]

I think it is heresy to say "Before the foundation of the world GOD chose those whom HE would Save through the LORD JESUS CHRIST.Before the foundation of the world GOD chose those whom HE would Save through the LORD JESUS CHRIST."

I hope everybody understands that God does not make a choice whom he saves and whom he condemns to hell. That decision is entirey man's responsibility. God always puts man before a choice. Man is a free moral agent. The saving work in the new bith is God's work but the choice is yours. If God chose whom he would save, then of course he would choose all of humanity since the thought of everlasting hellfire is so endlessly depressing and painful. Can you imagine a dear loved one or yourself in hell because God did not choose you to get saved? What kind of God is that? What love is this? Catholics believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the virgin birth, miracles and divinity of Christ. So where is the problem of them getting saved? They might not go to the extreme of some Baptists who claim that one needs to "make an altar to pray through" in order to get saved. Where is that in the Bibe? So even among Baptists you find some doctrinal weirdness. Nut just among Catholics. I worry about some Baptists who put pride in their lineage John the Baptist instead of putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone. So some Baptist make a similiar mistake that some Catholics make who put more stock in their lineage to Peter instead of simply trusting Jesus Christ for salvation.

I'm sorry but Scripture is clear that no one comes to the Son unless the Father draws them and no one who is given to the Son will He turn away. Romans 8 tells us that God predestines - then calls. He predestines some to be conformed to the image of His Son - and we know not everyone is conformed to the image of Christ. Ephesians 1 shows Paul saying that "He chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." How can you call Scripture heresy?

 

[DHK]

I think it is heresy to say "Before the foundation of the world GOD chose those whom HE would Save through the LORD JESUS CHRIST.Before the foundation of the world GOD chose those whom HE would Save through the LORD JESUS CHRIST."

I hope everybody understands that God does not make a choice whom he saves and whom he condemns to hell. That decision is entirey man's responsibility. God always puts man before a choice. Man is a free moral agent. The saving work in the new bith is God's work but the choice is yours. If God chose whom he would save, then of course he would choose all of humanity since the thought of everlasting hellfire is so endlessly depressing and painful. Can you imagine a dear loved one or yourself in hell because God did not choose you to get saved? What kind of God is that? What love is this?

God is both omniscient and sovereign.
He knows the end from the beginning.
The Bible says that we are the elect according to His foreknowledge.
He knows who is going to choose according to their own free will and who will reject Him according to their own free will. He doesn't force any to choose or reject Christ. Man makes his own decision.

Catholics believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, the virgin birth, miracles and divinity of Christ. So where is the problem of them getting saved?

The devil believes in this knowledge too, so where is the problem of the devil getting saved? Knowledge doesn't save.
The Catholics don't believe is salvation by grace through faith and not of works (Eph.2:8,9).
In fact contrary to the very teaching of that Scripture their whole religion is a religion based on salvation by works, instead of faith. No one can get to heaven by their works, and yet this is what the Catholic church teaches.

They might not go to the extreme of some Baptists who claim that one needs to "make an altar to pray through" in order to get saved.

Baptists don't make that claim (at least not the ones that I know). Where did you hear about this?

Where is that in the Bibe? So even among Baptists you find some doctrinal weirdness.

It isn't in the Bible, and I don't know Baptists that practice it, so I think that you are mischaracterizing Baptists.

I worry about some Baptists who put pride in their lineage John the Baptist instead of putting their faith in Jesus Christ alone.

I don't know many that do that either. The very few that believe in successionism do not put their salvation in it. They still place their salvation in Christ by faith alone. The RCC doesn't.

So some Baptist make a similiar mistake that some Catholics make who put more stock in their lineage to Peter instead of simply trusting Jesus Christ for salvation.

No Catholic believes salvation is trusting Christ for salvation by faith. It is not there. They believe first in baptismal regeneration, secondly in keeping the sacraments, and third salvation through the RCC by continuing to do good works. That is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[EdSutton]

Did Jonah die in the belly of the Fish? I don't buy that.....not one bite!:laugh:

No, Jonah was dead before the fish, which God had prepared, made his acquaintance. Have you ever actually studied the prayer Jonah prayed? It's all in the past tense, meaning this happened before he was in the belly of the fish. (I'll quote from the most 'Baptist' of versions. )

“ Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice. (Jon, 2:2b - NKJV)

The waters surrounded me, even to my soul;
The deep closed around me;
Weeds (Seaweed- HCSB) were wrapped around my head. (Jon. 2:5 - NKJV)

I sank to the foundations of the mountains;
the earth with its prison bars closed behind me forever!
But You raised my life from the Pit, Lord my God! (Jon. 2:6 - HCSB)

My prayer came to You, to Your holy temple.
As my life was fading away (When my soul fainted within me - NKJV), (A)I remembered the LORD. (Jon. 2:7 - HCSB)

The words Jonah said are consistent with death, Jonah didn't merely get wet, and the fish swallowed him, He sank to the bottom of the sea, and he was dead. He was in Sheol, the realm of the departed spirits, again, meaning he was dead. And I believe that, and that he was raised up, as the type of the Lord Jesus Christ, in His resurrection. Jesus, himself, cited Jonah as the only sign of his resurrection, in Mt. 12:30-40. I do not believe this prayer to merely be some poetic imagery, but an actual account of Jonah's experiences.

G'nite, boys and girls! Past time for :sleeping_2:

Ed

 

[annsni]

The bottom line in the discussion is where is one's faith - what is their faith in.

If it is on Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, who died as a ransom for our sins, and trusting in Him for their salvation alone, then that is wonderful.

If it is on Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, who died as a ransom for our sins and trusting in Him for their salvation as well as sacraments and other dead people to help them to get to a state of holiness in order to gain salvation, then that is bad.

My father continues to go to the Catholic church. He grew up Catholic and was saved very late in life. He's a very traditional man and found himself a Catholic church that is quite evangelical and he goes there. He does not pray to Mary or the saints, he does not believe the Pope is infallable in his decisions as Pope. He does not believe that the communion elements are actual body and blood of Christ but symbolic. He believes what the Bible says, loves the Lord, reads God's Word daily and trusted in Jesus Christ as his Savior. Yes, he attends the Catholic church and is saved. Would I say he's a practicing Catholic? Probably not, knowing my Catholicism from 6 years of Catholic school and being in an Irish Catholic family.

 

[Jedi Knight]

"As my life was fading away (When my soul fainted within me - NKJV " Fading and dead are not the same.:type:

 

[Alive in Christ]

BrionyGloriana...

"I too fell away from the RCC but have returned because I attend the Tridentine Mass.....there is an Epistle and Gospel reading each day of the year and because the Mass is offered in Latin...on a Sunday the Epistle and Gospel are then repeated in English for those who do not have a Daily Missal. The sermon is based on these readings.At the end of the Mass the concluding Gospel reading is from John 1:1-14

During Mass there is any number of portions of the Bible incorporated into the structure of the Mass."

All of that is fine and good, but it is completely canceled out and rendered irrelavent when those readings are done in the midst of a mind boggling amount of heresy, error, blasphemy, idolatry and the proclaimation of a false and non-saving gospel.

Cults like the Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormans, David Koresh and Jim Jones all have, or had, bibles, and scripture readings during thier gatherings.

The Catholic Church is in the same boat with those groups. They vehemently deny and condemn the gospel of Jesus Christ while promoting blasphemy, idolatry and a false gospel.

I post this with sadness.

:godisgood: