Are there even biblical arminians posting On The baptist Board?

[Winman]

Willis,

I do not think it is wise to use winman as a source for biblical definitions'

Regeneration
[ 1,,G3824, palingenesia ]
new birth" (palin, "again," genesis, "birth"), is used of "spiritual regeneration," Titus 3:5, involving the communication of a new life, the two operating powers to produce which are "the word of truth," James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23, and the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-John 3:6; the loutron, "the laver, the washing," is explained in Ephesians 5:26, "having cleansed it by the washing (loutron) of water with the word."

The new birth and "regeneration" do not represent successive stages in spiritual experience, they refer to the same event but view it in different aspects. The new birth stresses the communication of spiritual life in contrast to antecedent spiritual death; "regeneration" stresses the inception of a new state of things in contrast with the old; hence the connection of the use of the word with its application to Israel, in Matthew 19:28. Some regard the kai in Titus 3:5 as epexegetic, "even;" but, as Scripture marks two distinct yet associated operating powers, there is not sufficient ground for this interpretation. See under EVEN.

In Matthew 19:28 the word is used, in the Lord's discourse, in the wider sense, of the "restoration of all things" (Acts 3:21, RV), when, as a result of the second advent of Christ, Jehovah "sets His King upon His holy hill of Zion" (Psalms 2:6), and Israel, now in apostasy, is restored to its destined status, in the recognition and under the benign sovereignty of its Messiah. Thereby will be accomplished the deliverance of the world from the power and deception of Satan and from the despotic and anti-christian rulers of the nations. This restitution will not in the coming millennial age be universally a return to the pristine condition of Edenic innocence previous to the Fall, but it will fulfill the establishment of God's covenant with Abraham concerning his descendants, a veritable rebirth of the nation, involving the peace and prosperity of the Gentiles. That the worldwide subjection to the authority of Christ will not mean the entire banishment of evil, is clear from Revelation 20:7-Revelation 20:8. Only in the new heavens and earth, "wherein dwelleth righteousness," will sin and evil be entirely absent.

Oh, so Willis should listen to Calvinists who corrupt and redefine words?

I think Willis is WAY too smart to ever do that.

Regeneration literally means to be made alive AGAIN. Now, this is simple, a child could understand this. You must be alive ONCE to be alive AGAIN. That is also very basic logic that a small child could easily understand. The only persons who can't understand this are you Calvinists. You redefine regeneration to mean "generation".

I have shown you a hundred times, I'll show you again, Jesus said the prodigal son was alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

I am sorry I have to over-emphasize the word "again" in this verse, but for some reason you are oblivious to it. You would rather listen to your scholars than the words of Jesus himself.

And just to make sure folks understood this, Jesus said it twice.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Sorry to over-emphasize the word "again" once again, but if Jesus over-emphasized it, so can I. Perhaps he foresaw you Calvinists who would come along centuries later?

You just go on and believe Augustine, I will believe Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis,

1) In conception, where does the soul come from? Is it part of the maturation process of embryo, zygote, fetus, infant, or does the soul come from God?

The spirit/soul comes from God who gave it. It returns to God.

2) If said soul comes from God, and it comes in an already "dead in trespasses and sins"

,

God has said that all died in Adam. he does not give a step by step description of how this is passed down...just that it is so.

then God created said soul with sin mixed in, making Him the Author of said sin?

Why would you make such an evil statement Willis. We are not made like a camera with a sinful SD card in our brain. God does not make anyone sin. They sin because they are sinners:

Against Thee, Thee only, I have sinned, And done the evil thing in Thine eyes, So that Thou art righteous in Thy words, Thou art pure in Thy judging.

5 Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.

That is what God says. The psalmist does not say....you have made me sin. we our sinners because of Adam and Eve.
3) If one is born spiritually dead, then how can someone/anyone be made alive again, a la regenerated......which means to be made alive again?

Until you answer these questions, I can not further engage in this discussion.

Until you stop thinking that God is in anyway responsible for our sin...you should not engage in the discussion as you and these others insist on refusing the clear teaching of romans 3, and romans 5.

You and you alone are drawing this wrong conclusion. I will not ever say or imply that God is the author of sin. That is just wicked. I start with the biblical presupposition that God is perfect in Holiness. All biblical calvinists do.

IOW, I want YOUR opinion, and not the opinions of your Reformed people.

Willis....my opinion, or your opinion are useless. What God's word says is what matters. i can only offer what the scripture calls revealed truth according to the analogy of faith. I want to think God's thoughts after HIM.. My thoughts apart from Divine revelation are useless.

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, this is the problem, a person who does not know Greek has no way of knowing if the interpretation offered is correct. I doubt Iconoclast knows Greek and has any idea of whether his explanation is correct.

Not only that, but you can find numerous passages of scripture where supposed Greek scholars disagree.

Fact is, in Romans 7:9 Paul clearly says he was once alive without the law. This one verse alone refutes Original Sin, for if all men were born dead in sin, then no man could ever say he was ALIVE. But that is exactly what Paul tells us.

If men are born dead in sin, then the prodigal son could not have been alive AGAIN as Jesus said. But that is exactly what Jesus said TWICE.

These guys don't have scripture on their side, scripture refutes Original Sin.

Nice copout winman....
show any supposed greek scholar who teaches any different here...go ahead..post it...

No....you and Hos just cannot face the fact of what the scripture teaches here and in other places...you have no answer....just error...so you attempt to dis-credit the truth but we are not buying it:thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

Willis,



The spirit/soul comes from God who gave it. It returns to God.
,

God has said that all died in Adam. he does not give a step by step description of how this is passed down...just that it is so.




Why would you make such an evil statement Willis. We are not made like a camera with a sinful SD card in our brain. God does not make anyone sin. They sin because they are sinners:

That is what God says. The psalmist does not say....you have made me sin. we our sinners because of Adam and Eve.
3) If one is born spiritually dead, then how can someone/anyone be made alive again, a la regenerated......which means to be made alive again?



Until you stop thinking that God is in anyway responsible for our sin...you should not engage in the discussion as you and these others insist on refusing the clear teaching of romans 3, and romans 5.

You and you alone are drawing this wrong conclusion. I will not ever say or imply that God is the author of sin. That is just wicked. I start with the biblical presupposition that God is perfect in Holiness. All biblical calvinists do.



Willis....my opinion, or your opinion are useless. What God's word says is what matters. i can only offer what the scripture calls revealed truth according to the analogy of faith. I want to think God's thoughts after HIM.. My thoughts apart from Divine revelation are useless.

There you go fellas, you think you can have a reasonable debate with these Calvinists. How did that work out? Iconoclast accuses you of making God the author of sin when it is his doctrine that makes God the author of sin.

You are not going to get an honest debate from these guys, they will always use dishonest and unethical tactics like this. This post is a perfect example of that.

They think folks are fooled, but no one is.

 

[Iconoclast]

Willis,
you did not respond to this:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Willis,

I cannot agree to your idea ,as I believe it is unbiblical in several ways

In your idea...men are born spiritually alive.


That would mean they are born indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
That would mean they lose salvation when they commit and act of sin.
that would mean they were not sealed with the Spirit like Eph 1 says.
that would mean romans 3 :23 does not say this as i posted to Winman:


Quote:
8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity,


but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…”




Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

 

[Iconoclast]

winman.

There you go fellas, you think you can have a reasonable debate with these Calvinists. How did that work out? Iconoclast accuses you of making God the author of sin when it is his doctrine that makes God the author of sin

No need to lie winman....I just quoted what willis said....

right here:

then God created said soul with sin mixed in, making Him the Author of said sin?

 

[Winman]

winman.


No need to lie winman....I just quoted what willis said....

right here:

Baloney, you twisted what Willis said.

I trust Barack Obama more than you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Baloney, you twisted what Willis said.

I trust Barack Obama more than you.

You cannot respond to what was posted except to attempt to discredit the teaching offered. Which comes as no surprise as if you avoiding the posts correcting your non stop error...will somehow not show the truth to stand in contrast to your undermining of those truths:laugh::laugh::laugh:

You have no answer ...so you divert away from scripture...yes we understand:thumbsup:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Nice copout winman....
show any supposed greek scholar who teaches any different here...go ahead..post it...

Let's ignore "Greek scholars" for a moment...and merely speak of "English verses" in the Bible writ large...Shall we???

No....you and Hos just cannot face the fact of what the scripture teaches here

Wait a second....give us the "here" and in English please...wherein God ascribes "guilt" to infants...This should be simple.

and in other places...

Give us "here" and in English please....and then we will speak of "other places..."..

you have no answer

Correct!!!! Winman and Hos, and no Calvinist detractors have an "answer"...because you are NOT providing any Scripture which states your case...You are insisting that infants have "sinned" somehow....please tell us where, and possibly quote that verse (if it isn't too difficult) and then we will have something against which to actually "detract"...We don't even have anything against which to "detract"...You have posted NOTHING....Well, you have posted a bunch of quotes from "Theologians"...but nothing from Scripture...Simply Post a Scripture...and we will engage it, head on......You have lied to yourself for years...You aren't "Scriptural"...we are DEMANDING Scripture....You won't provide it.

Give us Scripture...Icon....Or are you admitting that your Calvinism is not, and never was Scriptural to begin with....You could actually merely start with an explanation of how Romans 3:23 States clearly and unequivocally that aborted babies are "guilty" of Law transgression....(You think it's true right)? You could simply start with that one??? I'll start you off by quoting the verse:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Explain to us, how this is a clear Scriptural insinuation that aborted babies are wicked and guilty and utterly deserving of the wrath of God...You have defended this notion for several pages...Please do so in English.

 

[Winman]

You cannot respond to what was posted except to attempt to discredit the teaching offered. Which comes as no surprise as if you avoiding the posts correcting your non stop error...will somehow not show the truth to stand in contrast to your undermining of those truths:laugh::laugh::laugh:

You have no answer ...so you divert away from scripture...yes we understand:thumbsup:

I don't divert from scripture, I post scripture constantly to support my views. It is you that posts the writing of men who try to tell us that scripture does not say what it obviously says as HoS pointed out.

You yourself twist scripture, you said;

God has said that all died in Adam. he does not give a step by step description of how this is passed down...just that it is so.

This statement of yours is absolutely false, the scriptures no where say all men died in Adam. The only time "in Adam" is said in all of scripture is in 1 Cor 15:22 where it says in Adam "all die".

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The scriptures do not say all men died (past tense) in Adam as you falsely teach, the scriptures say in Adam "all die" (future tense). You twist scripture. For a man to "die" he must first be alive. This verse actually refutes Calvinism, but you like many others misquote it and misrepresent it.

I have also seen many Calvinists use this verse to speak of spiritual death when it is speaking of physical death only. The entire 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians deals with the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death.

Calvinists also misapply Romans 5:12 to be speaking of physical death when it is speaking of spiritual death. Calvinism nearly always interprets scripture to mean the exact opposite of what it truly says. You are not yet aware of this, but perhaps someday you will see it is true.

Your explanation of Romans 7:9 is that Paul did not really mean what he said. You do not even address the scriptures I showed you in Luke 15 because you cannot possibly explain them. You know this so you conveniently ignore them.

Maybe simple Calvinists like you are fooled, I am not.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Wouldn't it be good if there was a church where these differing views would be allowed?

I have come to regard Icon as a friend, and I would not want to see him rejected from a church i was in, even though our views are opposite on some things.

 

[convicted1]

Willis,
you did not respond to this:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
Willis,

I cannot agree to your idea ,as I believe it is unbiblical in several ways

In your idea...men are born spiritually alive.


That would mean they are born indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
That would mean they lose salvation when they commit and act of sin.
that would mean they were not sealed with the Spirit like Eph 1 says.
that would mean romans 3 :23 does not say this as i posted to Winman:


Quote:
8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity,


but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…”




Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

No need to. Brother HoS said it better than I ever could.

 

[convicted1]

Willis,



The spirit/soul comes from God who gave it. It returns to God.

Agreed. Now, if it comes from God good, then what makes it bad at conception? Sin is breaking God's command(s). What sin did the soul commit at conception to turn it from bad to good?

God has said that all died in Adam. he does not give a step by step description of how this is passed down...just that it is so.

BZZZZ! Wrong! In Adam all die.

Why would you make such an evil statement Willis. We are not made like a camera with a sinful SD card in our brain. God does not make anyone sin. They sin because they are sinners:

Please go back and reread what I posted. I never stated this. You misquoted me here.

That is what God says. The psalmist does not say....you have made me sin. we our sinners because of Adam and Eve.

I agree with what the psalmist said. I just disagree with what you said.

Until you stop thinking that God is in anyway responsible for our sin...you should not engage in the discussion as you and these others insist on refusing the clear teaching of romans 3, and romans 5.

Please go back and reread what I posted. I never stated this the way you are accusing me.

You and you alone are drawing this wrong conclusion. I will not ever say or imply that God is the author of sin. That is just wicked. I start with the biblical presupposition that God is perfect in Holiness. All biblical calvinists do.

You are drawing the wrong conclusion from what I posted. Please reread it.

Willis....my opinion, or your opinion are useless. What God's word says is what matters. i can only offer what the scripture calls revealed truth according to the analogy of faith. I want to think God's thoughts after HIM.. My thoughts apart from Divine revelation are useless.

Opinions don't change the truth. But it tells us what each other believes.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are pathetic, The Biblicist explained to you just last week that I do not believe Jesus had a sin nature. You know that. You are either the most forgetful person ever to post at BB or intentionally dishonest. Which is it?



Scripture says Jesus took on the nature of the seed of Abraham, was made like unto his brethren in ALL THINGS, and was in ALL POINTS tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Jesus was subjected to exactly the same effects of the fall that all men were.



He came to save us from our sins. What does that have to do with the discussion?



You don't have a problem with Adam and Eve being created sinless do you? Why not?

Your argument is bogus. Adam and Eve were sinless and created in a perfect world, yet sinned the first time they were tempted. What makes you think that we who are born into an utterly corrupt world with thousands of temptations would do any better?

It is not amazing that all men sin, what is amazing is that Jesus lived as a man for 33 years in this corrupt world with thousands of temptations and NEVER sinned. THAT is what is amazing.

Fact is, the scriptures say ALL MEN have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The scriptures do not say that Adam's sin was imputed to all men as you falsely teach.

How was jesus born sinless though? Are ALL born without a sin nature like he was, if not, How did he have it?

He is NOT same as any other human, as he was sinless human and God!

THAT is why He did not sin, as he was God in perfect sinless flesh!

 

[Winman]

How was jesus born sinless though? Are ALL born without a sin nature like he was, if not, How did he have it?

You know very well I believe all men are born upright, I have posted it a hundred times.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

I have posted this verse dozens, if not hundreds of times. You know that perfectly well. What is wrong with you? How many times does a person have to answer you before it registers in your brain? If you are a representative of Calvinism, then Calvinism is in serious trouble.

No, you know perfectly well what I believe, you just play stupid. You do it well.

He is NOT same as any other human, as he was sinless human and God!

Jesus was the same as every human, I have showed you this scripture dozens of times as well. The only difference is that Jesus never chose to sin.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Scripture says Jesus was made like his brethren in ALL THINGS. What part of "all things" do you not understand?

THAT is why He did not sin, as he was God in perfect sinless flesh!

Jesus did not sin because he chose to be obedient to his Father and never sin, not because he was unable to sin. I have also shown you scripture where Jesus implied he had the ability to lie.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus said "IF" he should deny that he knew his Father, he would be a liar. The word "if" denotes possibility. Jesus had the ability to sin, but chose never to sin.

Now, before you forget and ask these same exact questions next week, print out these answers I have given you. When you forget in 3 days, remember this copy and read it. Your dumb act is getting old.

 

[Yeshua1]

You know very well I believe all men are born upright, I have posted it a hundred times.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

I have posted this verse dozens, if not hundreds of times. You know that perfectly well. What is wrong with you? How many times does a person have to answer you before it registers in your brain? If you are a representative of Calvinism, then Calvinism is in serious trouble.

No, you know perfectly well what I believe, you just play stupid. You do it well.



Jesus was the same as every human, I have showed you this scripture dozens of times as well. The only difference is that Jesus never chose to sin.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Scripture says Jesus was made like his brethren in ALL THINGS. What part of "all things" do you not understand?



Jesus did not sin because he chose to be obedient to his Father and never sin, not because he was unable to sin. I have also shown you scripture where Jesus implied he had the ability to lie.

Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

Jesus said "IF" he should deny that he knew his Father, he would be a liar. The word "if" denotes possibility. Jesus had the ability to sin, but chose never to sin.

Now, before you forget and ask these same exact questions next week, print out these answers I have given you. When you forget in 3 days, remember this copy and read it. Your dumb act is getting old.

IF you actually hold to humans being born without sin, and IF you hold that Jesus was not God in human flesh, IF you hold that he said could sin...

NOT real christianity!

 

[Winman]

IF you actually hold to humans being born without sin, and IF you hold that Jesus was not God in human flesh, IF you hold that he said could sin...

NOT real christianity!

Again Calvinism shows to the world how corrupt and dishonest it is, when did I ever say Jesus was not God? You can't possibly show that, because I never said or implied any such thing.

Just as Iconoclast intentionally misrepresented Willis, you intentionally misrepresent me. You guys cannot win an honest debate, so you must resort to dishonest tactics. Despicable, but I know you have no shame.

As Jesus said;

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Anybody who thinks they can hold an honest debate with Calvinists is deluded.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again Calvinism shows to the world how corrupt and dishonest it is, when did I ever say Jesus was not God? You can't possibly show that, because I never said or implied any such thing.

Just as Iconoclast intentionally misrepresented Willis, you intentionally misrepresent me. You guys cannot win an honest debate, so you must resort to dishonest tactics. Despicable, but I know you have no shame.

As Jesus said;

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Anybody who thinks they can hold an honest debate with Calvinists is deluded.

was Jesus JUST the same as you at His birth?

Did he keep from sinning because he was God or not?

 

[Winman]

was Jesus JUST the same as you at His birth?

Did he keep from sinning because he was God or not?

Jesus IS God, but Jesus came in the form and nature of man. He was able to be tempted, which God in heaven cannot be. Jesus could have chosen to sin but did not. The scriptures say he was obedient.

Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus was not a programmed robot without the ability to make contrary choices. He was found in the fashion of a man and could choose to either obey or disobey his Father. Jesus chose to always obey his Father and therefore never sinned.

I have already showed you John 8:55 where Jesus said that "if" he denied he knew his Father, then he would be a liar. The word "if" shows that it was possible for Jesus to deny his Father.

I am not denying that Jesus is God at all. But Jesus came in the flesh. Any man that denies Jesus came in the flesh is the spirit of antichrist.

You don't get it, Jesus had to be exactly like us to redeem us and save us from sin. He had to choose to obey where we chose to disobey. He had to endure temptation and be victorious over it where we failed.

If you don't understand my view, then ask questions, but don't intentionally misrepresent me as you have done.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus IS God, but Jesus came in the form and nature of man. He was able to be tempted, which God in heaven cannot be. Jesus could have chosen to sin but did not. The scriptures say he was obedient.

Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus was not a programmed robot without the ability to make contrary choices. He was found in the fashion of a man and could choose to either obey or disobey his Father. Jesus chose to always obey his Father and therefore never sinned.

I have already showed you John 8:55 where Jesus said that "if" he denied he knew his Father, then he would be a liar. The word "if" shows that it was possible for Jesus to deny his Father.

I am not denying that Jesus is God at all. But Jesus came in the flesh. Any man that denies Jesus came in the flesh is the spirit of antichrist.

You don't get it, Jesus had to be exactly like us to redeem us and save us from sin. He had to choose to obey where we chose to disobey. He had to endure temptation and be victorious over it where we failed.

If you don't understand my view, then ask questions, but don't intentionally misrepresent me as you have done.

jesus NOT exactly same as us, as that would make Him a sinner!

God had foreordained Him to die upon the Cross, NOT was "might" die on the Cross, was foreordained that he WOULD die!