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Are We Born-Again Before Or After Faith?
- Thread starter Layman
- Start date
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
if it is so irresistible. is that not in effect forcing? (the person has no choice?
and what about Gods love. How does he respond to creation that his love is not unconditional?
Are We Born-Again Before Or After Faith?
A segment of believers accept the dark ages relic that the lost are unable to seek God or put their faith in Christ. Therefore they falsely assert the lost are given the ability to believe, enabled spiritually, because they were chosen before they were created or believed.
They ignore 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which clearly teaches we are chosen for salvation through (or on the basis of) faith in the truth. Ditto for James 2:5 which teaches we were rich in faith when we were chosen and God choosing us fulfilled the promise to those who love God.
The reality is if you mistakenly interpret Ephesians 1:4, or were taught a mistaken understanding, and you accept the errant view as truth, you have been blinded and can no longer grow in truth.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Yes, but as long as they cling to what they think is true, when in reality it is not true, then they can no longer grow in that area.
For example, my understanding and interpretation of Ephesians 1:4 differs from what the "saved before faith" folks believe. If my understanding is closer to the truth, then I can see (perhaps darkly) and they are blinded. However, in candor, the opposite might also be true. That is why careful study to minimize assumptions is a key to spiritual growth.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
"Are We Born-Again Before Or After Faith?" ... It is an apriori question that cannot be answered.
John 3 is the only place that speaks of "born again"* (or "born from above" depending on the translation), so there must, by necessity, be some ASSUMPTIONS on our part what equivalence we place to those words. Most choose "born again" = "saved", but even that demands that one clearly define "saved".
Were you "saved" when the blood was shed to redeem you? Then you were saved 2000 years ago (M.O.L.).
Were you "saved" when you repented and were transformed?
Are you "saved" when you "finish the race"?
Thus, "born again" is TWICE removed from an answer. First we must ASSUME that it means "saved" and then we must ASSUME the meaning of "saved". Given so broad a range and so innate a breath of individual "starting assumptions", how can one possibly answer whether "faith" comes before or after "born again"?
The answer flows from the initial assumptions and definitions. Change the assumptions/definitions and you change the answer.
Since John 3 offers no definitive response to the question on when "faith" appears relative to "born again", that probably indicates that "before or after faith" missed the point that Jesus was actually making about being "born again" in John 3.
YMMV.
* Note: 1 Peter 1 uses similar language in English, but different words in Greek (whatever the significance of that) so it is not "identical" to "born from above" as Jesus spoke in John 3.
John 3 is the only place that speaks of "born again"* (or "born from above" depending on the translation), so there must, by necessity, be some ASSUMPTIONS on our part what equivalence we place to those words. Most choose "born again" = "saved", but even that demands that one clearly define "saved".
Were you "saved" when the blood was shed to redeem you? Then you were saved 2000 years ago (M.O.L.).
Were you "saved" when you repented and were transformed?
Are you "saved" when you "finish the race"?
Thus, "born again" is TWICE removed from an answer. First we must ASSUME that it means "saved" and then we must ASSUME the meaning of "saved". Given so broad a range and so innate a breath of individual "starting assumptions", how can one possibly answer whether "faith" comes before or after "born again"?
The answer flows from the initial assumptions and definitions. Change the assumptions/definitions and you change the answer.
Since John 3 offers no definitive response to the question on when "faith" appears relative to "born again", that probably indicates that "before or after faith" missed the point that Jesus was actually making about being "born again" in John 3.
YMMV.
* Note: 1 Peter 1 uses similar language in English, but different words in Greek (whatever the significance of that) so it is not "identical" to "born from above" as Jesus spoke in John 3.
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Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( John 1:11-13 ).
This tells me that not only can we not "will ourselves" to heaven, we also cannot "will ourselves" to be born again.
In other words, those that received Him did so because they were born of God...
Not of blood ( earthly bloodline, which rules out the physical seed of anyone, including Abraham ), nor of the will of the flesh ( my will ), nor of the will of man ( other people's will, like my parents or other loved ones ).
It is God who alone makes someone born again, outside of all these desires or avenues.
Because of what this states, our belief of the word of God and our faith in Jesus Christ cannot, and does not, result in anyone being born of God.
Those things are the evidence of new birth, not the "requirements" for it.
Please take another look at it, my friend, and may God bless you.
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Ok, God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world." No isms allowed.
1) Who are the "us?" Born anew believers alive at the time Paul wrote Ephesians 1:4.
2) What does "in Him" mean?
a) Does it mean God chose us individually and put us into Christ spiritually before we were created? Nope
b) Does it mean God chose us individually and foresaw we would be put into Christ spiritually before we were created? Nope
c) Does it mean when God chose His Redeemer, that action corporately chose those His Redeemer would redeem? Yes
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Why is one born from above BF, it is because they have faith in God.
One is not regenerated/saved so they will believe, it is because they do believe that they are regenerated.saved.
om 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Rom 10:14 How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?
Rom 10:15 And how can they preach unless they are sent?
What Paul says here is clear. The Gospel is preached, people hear it, some believe it, call on God and are saved. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into the Reformed-Calvinist scenario.
The assertion scripture lacks sufficient information to rightly discern the concept of being born anew is false.
Matthew 11:11 NASB (See also Luke 7:28)
“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Here we can discern that those in the kingdom of heaven have been "born" in some other way than being born of women.
In John 1:12-13 we learn that those who "received Him" are given the right to BECOME children of God, born by the will of God. Thus when we accepted the gospel, putting our trust in Christ and our full devotion to Christ, as determined by God, He gave us the right to become children of God, by crediting our faith as righteousness.
In John 3:3 we are taught than unless we are born anew (also translated as again or from above) we can "see" the kingdom of God. "See" is used here like an appointment to "see" a doctor and refers to an in person visit.
In John 3:5 we are taught we must be born of Spirit in addition to our physical birth to enter the kingdom of God. This reinforces the idea we undergo the washing of regeneration (made alive born anew) to enter heaven.
John 3:6 teaches that we are born anew spiritually, thus our human spirit becomes a new creation, still in our mortal flesh.
In 1 Peter 1:3 we learn God caused us to be born anew, based on our faith, our hope of living after death due to the resurrection of Jesus.
In 1 Peter 1:23, we learn we have been born anew spiritually imperishable, thus we have eternal life.
In 1 John we learn those actually born anew do not "practice" sin.
In 1 John 5:1, we learn when God credits us with belief that Jesus is the Christ, He causes us to be born anew, once we are actually born anew, we love our fellow siblings in Christ.
In 1 John 5:4 we learn when we are born anew, we have overcome the world, referring (I think) to the bondage of sin.
In 1 John 5:18 we learn that those born anew do not sin (in that their possibly sinful actions carry no sin penalty due to the washing of regeneration).
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Same difference
No.. they were born of God because they received him.. To THEM he gave the right to become children of God.
That's not what I see. I see that we can not will ourselves to heaven apart from outside influence. We just do not come to faith on our own. It takes the work of God. As Jesus said, it is the work of God we believe
Again, John 3 refutes this
the people in Moses day were not saved until they looked in faith
Jesus said if we are still in unbelief, we are still condemned. We can not be born again while still condemned in sin
I would ask the same of you..
John 1: 11: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (no works)
1. He came into his own (The nation he chose) and they did not recieve him
2. But as many of them that did. They were given the right or power to become children
3. Not by Blood - Not by birthright
4. Not by the will of the fesh - Not because in your own power figured it out. and willed yourself to heaven
5. Not by the will of man, Your family or loved one can not will you to heaven, nor can you will someone else to heaven.
It is God who draws. it is God who teaches, and convicts. and brings us to the point of faith. we can not do this
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
Those who were part of the church, those who came to God in faith. As he said in romans 4. They had the faith of abraham
I would put it at B, but even then, He predestined that those who would be born again would be conformed to his image
How is one born again, Again, look to John 3.. It is by faith.. if we do not repent. we are still in a condemned state. and have no hope..unless we repent before we die
Option C destroys the integrity of a loving God. Sorry.. But you can not say you are a God of love, then withhold even the ability to get saved from most of your creation (only a few are saved. or enter the narrow Gate)
and you can not judge someone as a righteous judge to hell. while just letting other guilty just as guilty if not more. out just because.
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
just look at the gospel message. what is it?
Luke 24:47
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
There is no remission without repentance.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
No, you cannot. You can infer that meaning INTO the words of Matthew (Jesus), but Matthew wrote (Jesus said) NOTHING about "those in the kingdom of heaven have been 'born' in some other way than being born of women" ... he just said that those in the Kingdom are "greater".
Thus, everyone that begins with a different "assumption" will reach a different conclusion on John 3 and "faith before or after 'born from above'".
To be "part of the church" a person must be spiritually born anew, rather than a person whose faith has not been credited as righteousness.
If I understand your statement, you believe God chose foreseen individual with or without foreseen faith and predestined them to be put into Christ. But James 2:5 says God chose individuals while living as part of the world, as they were poor to the world, yet they were rich in faith and they loved God. Please reconcile scripture to your belief?
We are not born anew by faith. Only when God alone sets the individual apart, out of the realm of darkness and into Christ, do they undergo the washing of regeneration, where they are made alive together with Christ. But you are right, He makes the choice to transfer an individual based on crediting that person's faith as righteousness, Romans Chapter 4.
Option "c)" does not withhold the opportunity for salvation from anyone, or challenge the fact God is love.
Those individuals who are chosen and transferred into Christ are chosen on the basis of God crediting their faith as righteousness, not "just because." It is a conditional election to salvation.
Sorry but I see nothing to rebut.
You seem not to comprehend that John the Baptist was the greatest of any human born of women, so any human greater than him must be born anew of something else, i.e. spiritually. If you can't see that, their is nothing more I can say....
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
You cant believe in Jesus unless born of God. Jn 6:65
Eternally Grateful
Active Member
which means they did what Abraham, and believed God. and God accounted it to them as righteousness (romans 4)
I see That God predestined according to his will
john 6:
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
which goes along with what he said in John 5:
John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
in both cases. seeing and believing, or hearing and believing are before one is given life.
And it goes to reason that those predestines are those who would do this
God does not have to know them by name before time began. He just predestined that whoever would see/hear and believe would be saved.
I think you need to reread James 2 and get context in order.
Jesus said otherwise, As did Paul
We are saved BY GRACE through faith.
remove faith from the equation. and you remove salvation.
God will not force you to believe
but as many as have received him..
I see it differently.
you seem to be back peddling..
I thought you said our faith has nothing to do with it
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That is where the C/R view is in disagreement with the bible, they have reversed the word of God.
Loraine Boettner stated the Calvinist position this way
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved." The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75
Calvinists have it backwards.