Are we born Spiritually "alive" or "dead"?

[Amy.G]

So, up to the age of 20 these "children" can do as they please because they are saved. Why do we spend so much time in child evangelism? Why do we encourage young kids to "accept" Christ as Saviour?

According to your interpretation regarding a physical land, that even Moses was denied entry by his death.

Why has that so-called age of responsibility fluxuated in this century?

Then, does God implant evil suddenly at age 20. I shouldn't like to live out age 19 or 21 with this understanding.

Cheers,

Jim

You tell me. I quoted scripture. Where is yours?



I would still like to know how Christ can redeem what was never His to begin with.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You tell me. I quoted scripture. Where is yours?



I would still like to know how Christ can redeem what was never His to begin with.

"The day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die."

Did Adam physically die that very day that he ate of the tree? No, he lived many years after that. But he did die spiritually.

"As in Adam, all die...."

Because of Adam's sin, all men were pronounced spiritually dead just as Adam was.

Really not hard to understand. All are born spiritually dead and needing to be redeemed.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Christ did indeed die for all. All were dead... that would include even the infant.

 

[Amy.G]

"The day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die."

Did Adam physically die that very day that he ate of the tree? No, he lived many years after that. But he did die spiritually.

Actually the Hebrew is literally "dying you shall die", indicating that he began to die physically as well. Yes he did die spiritually because of his sin against God.

Really not hard to understand. All are born spiritually dead and needing to be redeemed.

The only means of redemption is faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. An infant is incapable of this, so following your logic, infants cannot be saved.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Tell me how an infant can understand the gospel? And please don't say that God can speak to their hearts or some such. There is zero biblical support for that.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Are we born spiritually alive?


I believe its Yes and No.


The "yes" scenerio...

Lets say you had a husband an a wife, that lived on a desert island, and they chose to refuse TV or radio. And they are hard core athiests

They have a baby, and teach the child nothing about God or eternity, since they believe there is no God, no eternity and no life of any kind after death.

In spite of ZERO instruction concerning God, or life after death, at some point in time the kid will eventually start wondering "how did I get here", "whats the meaning of life, anyway", how did the sand and water get here", How did the sun, moon and starts get here? And whats going to happen to me...REALLY...when I die. I dont just want to "cease to exist"' like mom and dad say will happen.

(((I want to live on!)))

Etc etc.

In THAT sense, yes...we are indeed born spiritually alive.




The NO scenerio...

Regarding being Spiritually alive in the sense of being born again...no, we are NOT spiritually alive. We are born spirtually dead. We must hear the gospel and excercise faith in Jesus Christ...and THEN we become spiritually alive.

Of course, that includes those people on the desert island. If no missionaries ever come, God Himself will evangelize them personally...giving them enough understanding regarding their sinful state, that they can respond acceptably, with saving faith in their creator. Or...turn the offer down.

So its either yes or no, depending on the context.

 

[Iconoclast]

Actually the Hebrew is literally "dying you shall die", indicating that he began to die physically as well. Yes he did die spiritually because of his sin against God.


The only means of redemption is faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. An infant is incapable of this, so following your logic, infants cannot be saved.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Tell me how an infant can understand the gospel? And please don't say that God can speak to their hearts or some such. There is zero biblical support for that.

The only means of redemption is faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. An infant is incapable of this

the infant is incapableof this.....and so are you.Saving faith and repentance are the gift of God.

Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof
1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )
2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

Tell me how an infant can understand the gospel? And please don't say that God can speak to their hearts or some such. There is zero biblical support for that.

[/QUOTE]
the 1689 confession points to all the answers you need from scripture

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

[Luke2427]

How can Jesus redeem that which never belonged to Him?

That's simple enough to answer, isn't it? The term redeem found its most common usage in the slave trade. People have bought thousands of slaves and set them free redeeming them. They never owned them before.


re·deem
   /rɪˈdim/ Show Spelled[ri-deem] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1.
to buy or pay off; clear by payment: to redeem a mortgage.

Why must he own them first to "redeem" them?

 

[Luke2427]

Because they haven't sinned.

Sin is in the nature. Is a liar only a liar after he lies? No. Of course not. He is not a perfectly honest man and in less than a second, right at the moment he tells an untruth, becomes a liar. That would be utterly ridiculous, wouldn't it?

He becomes a liar in his heart before he ever tells the first lie.

The bible calls each of these bodies we were born with a "body of sin" and a "body of death".

Sin is in the flesh of humans. It is his nature to sin as much as it is his nature to eat.

Adam gave us that when he sinned. We inherited his nature.

This is why we must be born again. One birth will not do for "flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God".

We must be born the second time, not of the flesh but of the Spirit for in our flesh "dwelleth no good thing".

The works of the flesh are manifest which are these: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, etc... according to Galatians.

 

[Luke2427]

I said they were born "not guilty". That means they are not held accountable. I think we're saying the same thing here. The problem is that you are saying that infants are spiritually dead. This means they are born separated from God and there is no remedy for that apart from faith in Christ. Since an infant cannot have faith or lack of it, according to your theology, they are bound for hell and will go there if they die before they put faith in Christ.

They must be alive in spirit at birth, but die at some point (accountability) because of their own sin (Rom 7:9), just as Adam did. It's at this point they can be redeemed or bought back by Christ through their faith in Him.

I actually agree with some of this. I do not think the deeds babies do are sin, per say. I have a 20 month old who "stole" the phone today and hid it. Was that sin? I do not think so. Is it stealing- absolutely. Look up the definition of the word steal.

But my son, though not committing sin, is a sinner just as a baby rattlesnake which has not yet killed anything is a killer. It is a born killer and my son is a born sinner.

It is his nature.

Now I think there is grace for babies. Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven."

That can be translated "... for such belong to the Kingdom of Heaven."

But for you to deny that humans are born sinners is for you to place yourself dangerously close to the edge of deadly heresy.

The Bible is plain- YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN TO SEE THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

 

[Luke2427]

There was atonement made in the OT for unintentional sin, which is sin of ignorance...Paul never taught contrary to this.

Where is this?

No, it places the guilt of the sinner exactly where it needs to be...on the sinner. An infant does not sin, so that question is like "when did you stop beating your wife."

The act does not precede the state. Sin does not precede the condition of being a sinner. One must first be a sinner before he can sin.

A liar does not become a liar the moment he tells his first lie. He is a liar at heart first. It must be his nature before it can be his habit.

We do what we do because we are what we are.

We are sinners before we sin.

We are sinners from birth. We are born into what the Bible calls a "body of sin". Paul said of these fleshly bodies that in them dwelleth no good thing (Romans 7).

Scripture teaches that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

Why? Because human flesh is sinful- it is infected with sin- it inherited a sin nature.

We are by "nature the children of wrath" according to Ephesians 2.

It is as much our nature to sin as it is to eat.

You said it...it has been appointed unto man ONCE to die. If a human is created "dead", and Scripture refers to this as the second death, that Scripture is wrong as it is appointed unto man TWICE to die

.

This just means that we die physically once. There is a second death, BTW. Look at Revelation 20.

GHis perfect judgement would not destine an infant to Hell, as we learn from His perspective (His Word).

Where at? I do not believe that babies go to hell, but I want to know what passage you have found that tells us that God's perfect nature means that he will not send them to hell. Where is that in the Bible?

It is NOT rebellion to God to use His standards of justice He has given us to model.

But it IS rebellion if you really don't have these mysterious standards from the Bible by which you judge the Almighty. Where are these standards?

That being said, if you cannot make a case for your child's standing with God using Scripture...

Then you make it. I think it is incredibly noble and sincere for him to say that he will not let emotion dictate his doctrinal stance. If he cannot prove it in the Bible he will not just lie to himself to make himself feel better about his loss. That is amazingly commendable.

So you make a case from Scripture, if you think you can, for him. He must have spent many hours looking prayerfully for some passages that would assure him he will see that baby again. I am curious if you can turn up some that he has not found.

 

[Luke2427]

How does a baby sin???

God Himself set an age of accountability in the OT. Anyone under the age of 20 was allowed to go into the promise land.

Numbers 14:29 Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, who have murmured against me,
Numbers 14:30-31 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.




Deuteronomy 1:39 Moreover your little ones, who you said should be a prey, and your children, who in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in there, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.


Those who were the age of 20 or above could not go into the promised land because of their rebellion against God. It is clear from these scriptures that God did not and does not hold children of a certain age responsible for sin or rebellion against Him.



My reason for believing babies are not spiritually dead is not emotional as some think. It comes from the word of God, which does make me emotional.

This passage does not teach that no one is held accountable for sin until they are twenty years old, Amy. Not at all. It simply states that God did not hold THESE young people accountable for Israel's sin. That's it. That's all you can say. To try to turn a Scripture like this into such a massive doctrine as one that declares outright that all teenagers are perfectly secure is madness.

The Bible must say it before we can declare it. This passage does not say it.

 

[Luke2427]

You tell me. I quoted scripture. Where is yours?



I would still like to know how Christ can redeem what was never His to begin with.

You didn't quote a single Scripture that said that all teenagers are going to heaven. Not one.

The Scripture you used said nothing like what you wanted it to say. Nothing at all.

We might as well say that no man 120 years of age or older can go to heaven since Moses was that old when he was forbidden to go into the promised land.

Shucks, if we are going to use passages this loosely we might as well teach ANYTHING.

 

[Luke2427]

Actually the Hebrew is literally "dying you shall die", indicating that he began to die physically as well. Yes he did die spiritually because of his sin against God.


The only means of redemption is faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. An infant is incapable of this, so following your logic, infants cannot be saved.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Tell me how an infant can understand the gospel? And please don't say that God can speak to their hearts or some such. There is zero biblical support for that.

It is not necessarily true that God can only save by faith in the death burial and resurrection of Christ. It says that that is what he does but it does not say that that is the only way he will ever do it. What if someone did not realize Christ was buried? What if they only realized that he died and rose again? Would you condemn them to hell?

God saves by the merits of Christ- and Christ alone is the way to heaven for anyone. But how much faith one must exercise is not stated. And though God said he saves men by faith in Christ that does not mean that this is the only way he saves anyone. If that is true then ALL babies go to hell because NONE of them exercise the kind of faith you demand and you said yourself that NO MAN (meaning no human) can come to the father apart from faith in Christ.

If I say I will carry people to the other side of the lake by my ferry, does that mean that I will never carry anyone across the lake by my boat?

No. I must say, I will ONLY EVER carry people to the other side of the lake by my ferry for you to deduce that that is the ONLY way I will ever carry people across the lake.

God saying he saves men by their faith in Christ does not mean that he ONLY EVER saves men by their faith in Christ. The Bible must say that God ONLY EVER saves men by their faith in Christ for you to demand that he will not save another way. God elects howsoever he chooses. Mind you he cannot save apart from the merits of Christ- he only saves by Christ. But how much people must understand is not an issue for God.

God saves people by faith in Christ. Does that mean that he cannot save people any other way? No. It must say that God ONLY EVER saves by faith in Christ. There are millions in heaven who never heard of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. The Ninevites that God saved under Jonah's preaching make up about a million of them. Christ was still the way they got into heaven whether they knew it or not, but they put no faith in the burial of Jesus to be saved.

Don't tell God that he needs man to believe in the burial if He is going to be able to save them by Christ's merit. That is presumption.

Christ is the only way to heaven, for the Ninevite, the Jew, Abraham, the baby or the mentally retarded. The Bible certainly does affirm that. But God applies Christ's merit any way he so chooses.

Tell the Almighty he cannot save that soul unless that soul believes in the burial if you want to. I will not. And I will not demand that he saves only that way until he says affirmatively that he will not save anyone apart from their faith in the death burial and resurrection.

 

[webdog]

That's simple enough to answer, isn't it? The term redeem found its most common usage in the slave trade. People have bought thousands of slaves and set them free redeeming them. They never owned them before.


re·deem
   /rɪˈdim/ Show Spelled[ri-deem] Show IPA
–verb (used with object)
1.
to buy or pay off; clear by payment: to redeem a mortgage.

Why must he own them first to "redeem" them?

The primary usage of the verb is to buy back. The definition you gave coincides with that action.

 

[Luke2427]

The primary usage of the verb is to buy back. The definition you gave coincides with that action.

It doesn't matter what the primary usage is if it CAN be understood to mean simply to purchase or pay in full. If it CAN mean that then, with all that the Scripture teaches everywhere about humans being sinners by nature, we can conclude assuredly that it DOES mean that.

 

[webdog]

Where is this?

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unintentional+sin&qs_version=NASB

The act does not precede the state. Sin does not precede the condition of being a sinner. One must first be a sinner before he can sin.

A sinner by the very definition of the word is "one who sins". That's not an arguable position, that's fact.

A liar does not become a liar the moment he tells his first lie. He is a liar at heart first. It must be his nature before it can be his habit.

We do what we do because we are what we are.

We are sinners before we sin

.False. We are humans with a nature that will sin...THAT is why we will lie. We are not liars until we lie. Such logic holds no water. You have completely redefined the very definition of sinner and liar.

We are sinners from birth. We are born into what the Bible calls a "body of sin". Paul said of these fleshly bodies that in them dwelleth no good thing (Romans 7).

Scripture teaches that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

Why? Because human flesh is sinful- it is infected with sin- it inherited a sin nature.

We've been around and around this before. I agree we inherited a sin nature, and God can have no part of that, hence death. Inheriting a sin nature and being a sinner are not the same thing as you are making them out to be. It just gurantees that we will become one. That is like saying an infant having the ability to walk one day means they are already considered walkers.

This just means that we die physically once. There is a second death, BTW. Look at Revelation 20.

But according to you and Augustine, the baby was created dead twice. The second death is spiritual death, the result of being a sinner and transgressing God's law. The baby must be appointed to die twice according to your model, and that contradicts Scripture.

Where at? I do not believe that babies go to hell, but I want to know what passage you have found that tells us that God's perfect nature means that he will not send them to hell. Where is that in the Bible?

According to the whole of His law! Those that transgress God's law are guilty, even the law He as placed within our heart. I just read this morning in Zecheriah. We know what true justice is because God is the giver of true justice...
8 And the word of the LORD came again to Zechariah: 9 “This is what the LORD Almighty said: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. 10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the foreigner or the poor. Do not plot evil against each other.’

But it IS rebellion if you really don't have these mysterious standards from the Bible by which you judge the Almighty. Where are these standards?

There is no "mysterious standards", that is pure speculation and is contrary to Scripture. As the passage I pointed out before, we know how to administer true justice because God has given us that standard.

Then you make it. I think it is incredibly noble and sincere for him to say that he will not let emotion dictate his doctrinal stance. If he cannot prove it in the Bible he will not just lie to himself to make himself feel better about his loss. That is amazingly commendable.

So you make a case from Scripture, if you think you can, for him. He must have spent many hours looking prayerfully for some passages that would assure him he will see that baby again. I am curious if you can turn up some that he has not found.

I have, but your systematic theology will not allow you to accept it. That's unfortunate. I also have spent much time studying this out, I once believed that we were created sinners. I have since changed my position on this.

 

[webdog]

It doesn't matter what the primary usage is if it CAN be understood to mean simply to purchase or pay in full. If it CAN mean that then, with all that the Scripture teaches everywhere about humans being sinners by nature, we can conclude assuredly that it DOES mean that.

So basically what you are saying is if you start with a false presupposition, you can choose whichever meaning fits that false presupposition even if it's the secondary position and not primary.

 

[webdog]

This passage does not teach that no one is held accountable for sin until they are twenty years old, Amy. Not at all. It simply states that God did not hold THESE young people accountable for Israel's sin. That's it. That's all you can say. To try to turn a Scripture like this into such a massive doctrine as one that declares outright that all teenagers are perfectly secure is madness.

The Bible must say it before we can declare it. This passage does not say it.

Amy did not say this was the age of accountability for all teenagers...you read that into her statement. She simply was showing that there IS an age of accountability mentioned in Scripture, something your camp refuses to acknowledge. In this particular case it was 19. As far as becoming a sinner, I believe God tells us it is at some point in childhood. That can be any age up to and through the teens.
21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though[a] every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

 

[Luke2427]

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=unintentional+sin&qs_version=NASB
A sinner by the very definition of the word is "one who sins". That's not an arguable position, that's fact.
.False. We are humans with a nature that will sin...THAT is why we will lie. We are not liars until we lie. Such logic holds no water. You have completely redefined the very definition of sinner and liar.

This is all bogus and you are blind as a bat if you cannot see that a man must become a liar inwardly before he can commit it outwardly. That is easy enough for a four year old to understand and I know you are smarter than this.

We don't up and sin. We sin because we are sinners at heart first.

A rattlesnake is a killer not because he kills but because it is his nature to kill.

Keep a rattlesnake from its infancy to adulthood in an box and feed it dead mice. You will still warn your loved ones to avoid that box because a killer is inside it.

This is plain as the nose on your face.

And why do we have a sin nature? According to your illogical position we don't even have a sin nature because you can't have that until you sin.

We've been around and around this before. I agree we inherited a sin nature, and God can have no part of that, hence death. Inheriting a sin nature and being a sinner are not the same thing as you are making them out to be.

You are what your nature is- period. If it is your nature to lie you are a liar. If it is your nature to kill you are a murderer. You are not separate from your nature. That is illogical.

But according to you and Augustine, the baby was created dead twice.

That makes absolutely no sense.

The second death is spiritual death, the result of being a sinner and transgressing God's law. The baby must be appointed to die twice according to your model, and that contradicts Scripture.

same

According to the whole of His law! Those that transgress God's law are guilty, even the law He as placed within our heart. I just read this morning in Zecheriah. We know what true justice is because God is the giver of true justice...

We are guilty in Adam. His sin is our sin. This is the reason for the sin nature.
8 And the word of the LORD came again to Zechariah: 9 “This is what the LORD Almighty said: ‘Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another. 10 Do not oppress the widow or the fatherless, the foreigner or the poor. Do not plot evil against each other.’
There is no "mysterious standards", that is pure speculation and is contrary to Scripture. As the passage I pointed out before, we know how to administer true justice because God has given us that standard.

WHAT?????????

I have, but your systematic theology will not allow you to accept it. That's unfortunate. I also have spent much time studying this out, I once believed that we were created sinners. I have since changed my position on this.

You would do better to "backslide" to where you once were.

 

[glfredrick]

So, up to the age of 20 these "children" can do as they please because they are saved. Why do we spend so much time in child evangelism? Why do we encourage young kids to "accept" Christ as Saviour?

According to your interpretation regarding a physical land, that even Moses was denied entry by his death.

Why has that so-called age of responsibility fluxuated in this century?

Then, does God implant evil suddenly at age 20. I shouldn't like to live out age 19 or 21 with this understanding.

Cheers,

Jim

I agree, especially in light of the fact that research data shows that the majority of persons who become Christians do so before age 18.

http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/196-evangelism-is-most-effective-among-kids

For years, church leaders have heard the claim that nearly nine out of ten Christians accept Jesus as their savior before the age of 18. If that statistic was accurate in the past, it no longer depicts U.S. society. The current Barna study indicates that nearly half of all Americans who accept Jesus Christ as their savior do so before reaching the age of 13 (43%), and that two out of three born again Christians (64%) made that commitment to Christ before their 18th birthday. One out of eight born again people (13%) made their profession of faith while 18 to 21 years old. Less than one out of every four born again Christians (23%) embraced Christ after their twenty-first birthday. Barna noted that these figures are consistent with similar studies it has conducted during the past twenty years.

What you are saying, Amy G., is that none of that is necessary because in Leviticus, God says that all those below the age of 20 will enter the "Promised Land." I guess that someone ought to tell the Holy Spirit, who is drawing all those people to salvation, a large proportion before they turn age 13!

You asked when a baby sins. My response was given earlier. The instant he or she does not get his or her way -- most likely in the birth canal and potentially before that when they are kicking in rebellion to something the mother eats or does. The Bible says that babies were "conceived" in sin, and that we are all born sinners due to Adam's sin.