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Are We Born With Sin natures, or receive One When We First Choose To Sin?
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seekingthetruth
New Member
So?
So, are you saying that Calvinists believe that anyone can be saved? Not the Calvinists I know personally.
Ignorance? How arrogant can you be? Just like the Calvinists I know.
Calvinists already believe that they have some special annointing from God that that the "non-chosen" cannot recieve, and then they have the nerve to call me "ignorant" on top of that?
I am very happy for you.
John
So, are you saying that Calvinists believe that anyone can be saved? Not the Calvinists I know personally.
Ignorance? How arrogant can you be? Just like the Calvinists I know.
Calvinists already believe that they have some special annointing from God that that the "non-chosen" cannot recieve, and then they have the nerve to call me "ignorant" on top of that?
I am very happy for you.
John
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That's not what you said. You said,
all that trust in him wil be saved. Calvinist believe that.
How does your ignorance make me angry. You are "unlearned" on the subject you were speaking of. That's what ignorance means. I gave you a link to inform you. Why don't you read that. And look up the word "ignorance" while you're at it.
No, the tree was restricted because without a law there can be no obedience or disobedience, there can be no choice to love God willingly.
If God had said they could freely eat of all the trees, how do you disobey this? You can't, so there is no choice.
You are correct about Eve, Satan appealed to her lust, but it was her own lust that tempted her to sin. The scriptures clearly say every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his OWN lust and enticed. If having lusts that tempt us is what people define as a sin nature, then Eve had a sin nature.
I disagree, I say she was flesh.
seekingthetruth
New Member
That's not what you said. You said,
all that trust in him wil be saved. Calvinist believe that.
How does your ignorance make me angry. You are "unlearned" on the subject you were speaking of. That's what ignorance means. I gave you a link to inform you. Why don't you read that. And look up the word "ignorance" while you're at it.
First of all, that is what I said. Try to understand the difference between what I state as fact and what I say as a sarcasim towards you.
And I am not ignorant. Every Calvinist I have ever met believes that only God's elect are saved. They tell tell me that if i am elect that i can't resist it (Grace) and that if i am not elect then i can't recieve it no matter how much I believe.
I may be "ignorant" of your particular church, but I not ignorant of the Calvinists that i know.
And, all of the Calvinists I know are just as arrogant as you, if that makes you feel even more spiritually superior than you already do.
John
Hi STT,
My apologies for not mentioning that I am not "reformed" intoto.
I agree with some tenents because IMO they are scriptural.
In fact I always try to determine exactly what the scripture is saying as most of us do here at the BB.
Obviously we don't all come to the same conclusion(s).
FWIW, I am undecided about "election".
I don't know how to resolve the "tension" between the doctrine of the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man. I can't help you there.
You've heard the quote? "Pray like it all depends on God, then go and serve Him as if it all depends on you".
Also, I don't have a religion per se but a love relationship with the Triune God which doesn't need a reason to serve Him.
Anyway, welcome to the BB brother.
Thanks
HankD
It entered through the lying deceit of Satan to the lust of the flesh. Satan knew what God was doing in creating man in the image of God. Satan and his demons want and wanted to be the sons of God and knew they never would be.
Hebrews 1:4,5 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? (the words this day are important here) And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
How did he inherit and just what is the more excellent name he inherited?
We, the universal church I might add
And much more...
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
HankD
HankD
your statment before was wrong. you can reword it to make it correct and that will be good. But your original statment was wrong.
of course! But you changed it to say that non-elect would have faith and be rejected which NO calvinist would agree with.
They don't tell you that. That's completely false. First, the elect can reject, but only up to a time. Calvinist don't teach that the elect get saved the first time they hear the gospel. They can reject, for years, before they will come. The non-elect will resist. They will never believe. The "if i am not elect then i can't receive it no matter how much I believe." shows you ignorance of Calvinism. I just gave you an article.
sorry, but you are simply in error. Go read the article. Show me one reformed article that says that the non-elect will ever believe. You won't find it.
Not sure what I've done to warrant the "arrogant" comment. Maybe it's just something to say because I'm correcting you. there are many things I don't know(aka ignorant of). If I were to go to a car repair man and say a bunch of things wrong with what he is doing, I would be acting in ignorance as I don't have a lot of knowledge of cars. I'm unlearned. Ignorant means unlearned, usually in the context of the discussion. It doesn't mean you are stupid, or unable to learn. It's usually given, as the case here, when the info is available, yet one want to not learn the truth.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
Calvinist would NOT say that (not intelligent ones). They would say that those not elect would never believe. Remember, that TULIP starts w/ total depravity (total inability to believe). So your statement is completely false.
seekingthetruth
New Member
Am I a liar?
I am telling you all my experiences with Calvinists.
And you all are calling me a liar and saying I am out of line.
Were any of you with me when i had these experiences with Calvinists? NO?
Then how can you say I am a liar?
And yes, when one group of people tell another that they are "wrong", "ignorant", "uninformed" and "liars".....that makes them arrogant.
John
I am telling you all my experiences with Calvinists.
And you all are calling me a liar and saying I am out of line.
Were any of you with me when i had these experiences with Calvinists? NO?
Then how can you say I am a liar?
And yes, when one group of people tell another that they are "wrong", "ignorant", "uninformed" and "liars".....that makes them arrogant.
John
no one is calling you a liar. you very well may have heard this from someone. Saying that you are ignorant of Calvinism doesn't make one ignorant. Saying you are wrong doesn't make one arrogant. Saying you are uninformed doesn't make one arrogant. Learn to be corrected. I know it's hard to do. I was corrected today when I said something wrong about someone's position. Just read some reformed writings if you want to see what Calvinist really believe. Read my link. It's short and it corrects everything you said in the post.
And as GreekTim stated, what you are saying you have heard from "Calvinist" it totally ignores Total Depravity. No non-elect person will ever believe.
seekingthetruth
New Member
tulip?
"Total depravity": This doctrine, also called "total inability", asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)[10] This doctrine is borrowed from Augustine who was a member of a Manichaean sect in his youth.
Yes, we are all slaves to sin in the flesh
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Unconditional election": This doctrine asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those He has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God[11]
Absolutely not. God chose us all for salvation, it is us that have to ability to reject that salvation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Limited atonement": Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", this doctrine asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.[12] The doctrine is driven by the Calvinistic concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and their understanding of the nature of the atonement.
Abosutely not. Jesus died for ALL of us, all we have to do is accept that. His sacrifice is restricted only by those that reject Him.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Irresistible grace": This doctrine, also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."[13]
Absolutely not. If this were true then why do we go to church? Why do we spread the gospel? If God has already decided that He is going to save certain people no matter what, then why even make the effort to go to church?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Perseverance of the saints": Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints (the word "saints" is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven). The doctrine asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return
Yes and No. I do believe in eternal security. But, I believe it is available to everyone that recieves salvation. Where I differ from Calvinists is that they believe that only certain chosen ones can be saved. I believe that all men can be saved, and that salvation makes them the "chosen" and "elect'. Not some predestined curse or blessing from God.
By the way, I am not Armenian either. I believe in eternal security but I don't believe that it is only available to certain people
"Total depravity": This doctrine, also called "total inability", asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)[10] This doctrine is borrowed from Augustine who was a member of a Manichaean sect in his youth.
Yes, we are all slaves to sin in the flesh
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Unconditional election": This doctrine asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those He has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God[11]
Absolutely not. God chose us all for salvation, it is us that have to ability to reject that salvation
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Limited atonement": Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", this doctrine asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.[12] The doctrine is driven by the Calvinistic concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and their understanding of the nature of the atonement.
Abosutely not. Jesus died for ALL of us, all we have to do is accept that. His sacrifice is restricted only by those that reject Him.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Irresistible grace": This doctrine, also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."[13]
Absolutely not. If this were true then why do we go to church? Why do we spread the gospel? If God has already decided that He is going to save certain people no matter what, then why even make the effort to go to church?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Perseverance of the saints": Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints (the word "saints" is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven). The doctrine asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return
Yes and No. I do believe in eternal security. But, I believe it is available to everyone that recieves salvation. Where I differ from Calvinists is that they believe that only certain chosen ones can be saved. I believe that all men can be saved, and that salvation makes them the "chosen" and "elect'. Not some predestined curse or blessing from God.
By the way, I am not Armenian either. I believe in eternal security but I don't believe that it is only available to certain people
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seekingthetruth, what you need to realize is that Calvinists (on this board at least) believe that people are robots. The "non-elect" will never have any belief because god (the unmerciful god of the calvinist) has programmed them to never have any type of belief. Their god has only programmed the elect to be able to believe.
Once you understand that, you will be able to understand the twisting of words they use.
Once you understand that, you will be able to understand the twisting of words they use.
seekingthetruth
New Member
Thank you Matt, I see that now.
And thank you for speaking out when the rest of those on here that believe that everyone can be saved avoided the debate. Although, now I can see why they did.
Wow, it's like being told I am an ignorant bigot for opposing gay marriage. I must be stupid!!!
Anyway, thanks
John
Agreed. John 8:34
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"Unconditional election":
Absolutely not. God chose us all for salvation, it is us that have to ability to reject that salvation[/quote]
Interesting, so you would say that every single person that has ever existed was chosen by God to be saved? Someone as my self would say that God choose to save some no based on foreseen faith. Some would say that God has chosen those that believe to be save(conditional election).
Everyone in hell has rejected the gospel. All Calvinist would say that.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ok, don't usually argue to much on this one. I just word it differently from most Calvinist. I say that the atonement was intending to save believers and never those that die as unbelievers.
That's because that's the means of God saving people. We go to church to worship God and to equip/edify the saints. We spread the gospel to save the lost.
Good, we agree on the doctrine that those that God saves he keeps.
btw, where did you get this article. It appears to do a pretty good job of defining the terms, but seems worded from a non-Calvinists with the use of the term "asserts."
wow, that's totally not even close to true.
1. We don't believe people are robots. People make very willing choices.
2. How can you say we believe in an "unmerciful god[sic]"? That's totally uncalled for and will be reported if not changed. (saying we believe in a "god" is against forums rules. I'll give you a chance to change it before I report it.)
3. God has not programmed them to not believe, straw man
4. We don't use twisting words. You may disagree, but don't accuse us of using twisted words.
Your post is totally uncalled for and very unchristlike. I ask that you remove it. There is no need to slander your brothers in Christ. We are not your enemy. Just because we disagree on some doctrines, doesn't mean we should treat each others as enemies. We are both on the Lord's side.
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John, no one things you are an "ignorant bigot" for disagreeing. I said you were ignorant of Calvinism, not ignorant in general. You probably are a lot smarter than I am, I have no way of knowing. Matt's post was uncalled for. As I told him, we are on the Lords side. I don't care if you disagree with me. I'll discuss it with you all day, but don't say I believe something I don't. This is common on anti-calvinistic literature.
And no, I don't think you are stupid. you were able to turn on your computer, open your web browser....well, that's more than some of people can do.
Calvinists do believe people are robots. The calvinist god has destined that some people are completely incapable of making a choice to believe. You say that people make "very willing choices". That's twisting of words. You may say that people make these choices, but of course the calvinist god shapes their desires and their choices are based upon those desires. So, ultimately, the calvinist god shapes (programs) their choices.
I'm sorry if you feel my post is unchristlike. I will not remove it. It's what I believe and I am not ashamed to believe it. I believe that the god of calvinism is not the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible allows all people to choose whether they will trust in Jesus Christ's redeeming work. The god of calvinism unmercifully sends people to hell and gives them no chance at redemption. The god of calvinism is a racist and saves more white people in America than brown people in the Middle East.
If you worship the God of the Bible, then praise be! I'm not here to tell you which god you worship.
false
Against forum rules. This is the 2nd time you have violated it on this one page. I'll report both as soon as I'm done. I gave you a chance already.
It's because of sin
no it's not, people make choices. no Calvinst would ever say otherwise
Again, more forum rules breaking.
Very well, I'll report your post and let the mods change it. It's really sad to have someone like you posting the way you do. It gives a bad name to others that are not Calvinists. you have some serious issues that you need to deal with. I call out for you to be respectful and you continue to say I worship a false god, which is very wrong and a violation of forum rules.
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