Are we living under the New Covenant??

[HankD]

Brother Bob, here is a statement Jesus made that upset the pharisees:​

Matthew 21
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.​

Does this mean the gentile nation or another nation of Israel.​

I believe it refers to the nation of Israel that will have its eyes opened to the fact that Jesus Christ IS their Messiah. They will repent and be purged just before the Second Coming of Christ:​

Zecharaiah
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.​

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.​

In the Revelation:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

IMO the 144,000 of Revelation 7 are these who are purged.​

As for the New Covenant, yes, techically it was made with Israel and has yet to be completely fulfilled as Israel though in the land of Promise is yet in the state of unbelief torward their Messiah. We as gentiles have entered into it (grafted in) as an in toto fulfiment of the Abrahamic Covenant that through his Seed would come a blessing to ALL nations, the redemption of the human race.​

Acts 13
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you (Israel) : but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
...
52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.​

Acts 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.​

But as someone has said (the prophets as well), God will not forsake His people Israel.​

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.​

We are not given the specifics with the timeline concerning the the fulness of the gentiles and how to recognize when it is finished except to say that Jerusalem shall be "trodden down" until that time.​

In the meanwhile we have this very specific commandment given to ALL:​

Matthew 13
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.​

 

[skypair]

I ask once before if Israel could be saved now, and the answer I got was they could be saved individual, but the nation of Israel was still waiting to be received in. I can't see how that can be true at all, for if the New Covenant is here, it first come to the Nation of Israel and the Gentiles were grafted in, because of the unbelief of some, for scripture says that Israel was broken off in part, so as to bring in the Gentiles, until the fullness of the Gentiles come.

I don't think anyone can say that the Covenant is still to come to Israel, if they have already received it. Now the part that was broken off, may be grafted back in, but they have to do something for that to happen. They have to "believe". That is the same thing the whole world has to do, so what makes the grafting of Israel back in, any different than receiving anyone who will "believe"?

Your problem is with your application of the concept of "Israel." The "new covenant" came to ALL Israel -- nation, race, religion. They rejected it. SOME individual Israelites did accept it and were not cut out. Thus we have the "fulness of the Gentiles" coming in. Yes, that is the last believing Gentiles.

But then you get that confused with "the times of the Gentiles" which is following AC reign -- POLITICAL "times." That began with Nebby and ends with AC.

"All Israel" (BELIEIVING national, racial, and religious) Israel will be saved in the MK or the resurrection of the just. The "fulness of the Gentiles" is pretrib -- the "times of the Gentiles" is the end of the trib. All Israel begins to be saved during the tribulation --- ALL believing Israel (OT and trib) will be saved when Messiah comes (again) and sets up His kingdom RESURRECTING OT Israel as well!

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]

But then you get that confused with "the times of the Gentiles" which is following AC reign -- POLITICAL "times." That began with Nebby and ends with AC.

"All Israel" (BELIEIVING national, racial, and religious) Israel will be saved in the MK or the resurrection of the just. The "fulness of the Gentiles" is pretrib -- the "times of the Gentiles" is the end of the trib. All Israel begins to be saved during the tribulation --- ALL believing Israel (OT and trib) will be saved when Messiah comes (again) and sets up His kingdom RESURRECTING OT Israel as well!

skypair

Who taught you all this for it didn't come from scripture. One professor said that "sin was good", is that the teacher you had??

Early church belief on a whole was a Spiritual reign.

 

[npetreley]

Who taught you all this for it didn't come from scripture. One professor said that "sin was good", is that the teacher you had??

Early church belief on a whole was a Spiritual reign.

Arguing with a space cadet will always end in frustration, Bob.

 

[Brother Bob]

But then you get that confused with "the times of the Gentiles" which is following AC reign -- POLITICAL "times." That began with Nebby and ends with AC.

"All Israel" (BELIEIVING national, racial, and religious) Israel will be saved in the MK or the resurrection of the just. The "fulness of the Gentiles" is pretrib -- the "times of the Gentiles" is the end of the trib. All Israel begins to be saved during the tribulation --- ALL believing Israel (OT and trib) will be saved when Messiah comes (again) and sets up His kingdom RESURRECTING OT Israel as well!

skypair

Thank Npet; I am beginning to find that out.

 

[LeBuick]

"All Israel" (BELIEIVING national, racial, and religious) Israel will be saved in the MK or the resurrection of the just. The "fulness of the Gentiles" is pretrib -- the "times of the Gentiles" is the end of the trib. All Israel begins to be saved during the tribulation --- ALL believing Israel (OT and trib) will be saved when Messiah comes (again) and sets up His kingdom RESURRECTING OT Israel as well!

skypair

How can one be saved other than through Christ?

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So let's look at the entire promise;

Jer 31:27 (KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

So Israel and Judah will be combined with the seed of man and beast.

28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

No more Children paying for the sin's of their father.

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

This almost says no more National religion like Israel or Judaism; everyone must come to their own saving knowledge?

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

This day has come and the New Covenant has been made.

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

Very crucial verse, this is in no way a continuation of the past covenant which they broke... This is a new Covenant...

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Doesn't this sound like the Net Testemant to you?

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Again, it is not a national Israel, each one must come to their own saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[Grasshopper]

I believe it refers to the nation of Israel that will have its eyes opened to the fact that Jesus Christ IS their Messiah. They will repent and be purged just before the Second Coming of Christ:​

Zecharaiah
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.


John says this was fulfilled at the Cross:

​

Joh 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
Joh 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.​

Does this not refer to John the Baptist?

In the Revelation:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Adam Clarke:

Rev 1:7 -
Behold, he cometh with clouds - This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.
And all kindreds of the earth - Πασαι αἱ φυλαι της γης· All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.
Even so, Amen - Ναι, αμην· Yea, Amen. It is true, so be it. Our Lord will come and execute judgment on the Jews and Gentiles. This the Jews and Romans particularly felt.

Brother Bob, true Dispies such as Ryrie understand that if the New Covenant has been made then their view of eschatology collapses. They still await the fulfillment of Jer. 31:

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


This is one of the many reasons I am no longer a Dispie. They understand their obvious contraditions so they get around it by saying we recieve the blessings of the New Covenant but still await its making. It seems we live under the New Covenant in all other areas of theology, but when they speak on eschatology it suddenly isn't so clear to them.

 

[Brother Bob]

This is one of the many reasons I am no longer a Dispie. They understand their obvious contraditions so they get around it by saying we recieve the blessings of the New Covenant but still await its making. It seems we live under the New Covenant in all other areas of theology, but when they speak on eschatology it suddenly isn't so clear to them.

I agree with you Grasshopper, for God cannot lie and the new covenant was to come to Israel, and the Gentiles were grafted in. We did not replace them, we became as one for it is no longer Jew or Greek, but one.


So, the new covenant is come that was according to God, made to Israel, but we the Gentiles live under it, but Israel is cut off. I thought God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (TC)............ God said He would make this covenant with Israel, can God lie???

It don't make sense. "Behold, or look the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, not with the Gentiles, but yet you say we have it, they don't. Sorry, it don't make sense. Anyway, part of them did receive Christ.

Jer 31:31¶Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:




BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

So, the[/B] new covenant is come that was according to God, made to Israel, but we the Gentiles live under it, but Israel is cut off. I thought God's gifts and calling are irrevocable (TC)............ God said He would make this covenant with Israel, can God lie???

BBob,

1. The same text says that there's now a temporary hardening of Israel, and guess who has done it: God! Yes, God has a timetable.

2. I suggest you read the memo on that one. :thumbs:

 

[LeBuick]

1. The same text says that there's now a temporary hardening of Israel, and guess who has done it: God! Yes, God has a timetable.

2. I suggest you read the memo on that one. :thumbs:

How long is temporary with God? :godisgood:

 

[npetreley]

How long is temporary with God?

Reminds me of the joke:

God, is it true that with you a million dollars is like a penny?

"Yes."

And isn't it true that with you a thousand years is like a second?

"Yes."

Can I have a penny?

"Okay. Just a second."

 

[Brother Bob]

1. The same text says that there's now a temporary hardening of Israel, and guess who has done it: God! Yes, God has a timetable.

2. I suggest you read the memo on that one. :thumbs:

TC; I suggest that you read that it was not Israel as a whole that were blinded, but only in part.

Rom 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Here it says the election obtained it, them being a part of Israel.


Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Here it says that only SOME of the branches be broken off.


Rom 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Here it says the blindness was only in part.


Rom 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
So, here it says that all of Israel might be saved, but who is all of Israel?


Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
Here it says only some of them might be saved that were cut off.


Rom 9:6¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So, when you speak of some cut off, you need to clarify that only some of the branches were cut off, and for a short period of time. IMO

Rom 9:27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
So, when all is said and done, only a remnant will be saved.

It seems to me the scripture is teaching the elect and maybe the greater part were saved of the remnant already, so the scripture would be true.

Jer 31:31¶Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

This is in concurrence with the scripture, your theology is not, if you say the covenant is still to come to Israel. The covenant is there and only a few branches were broken off.

Everyone of you all, that hold to that doctrine, say Israel as a nation was cut off, or blinded and that just is not scripture. It was only in part were some branches broken off and only some of them will be saved, according to the word of God.


BBob,

John Calvin (1536)
"But a little later there followed the chiliasts, who limited the reign of Christ to a thousand years. Now their fiction is too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation. And the Apocalypse, from which they undoubtedly drew a pretext for their error does not support them. For the number "one thousand" (Rev. 20:4) does not apply to the eternal blessedness of the church but only to the various disturbances that awaited the church, while still toiling on earth."
"For when we apply to it the measure of our own understanding, what can we conceive that is not gross and earthly? So it happens that like beasts our senses attract us to what appeals to our flesh, and we grasp at what is at hand. So we see that the Chialists (i.e. those who believed that Christ would reign on earth for a thousand years) fell into a like error. Jesus intended to banish from the disciples' minds a false impression regarding the earthly kingdom: for that, as He points out in a few words, consists of the preaching of the Gospel. They have no cause therefore to dream of wealth, luxury, power in the world or any other earthly thing when they hear that Christ is reigning when He subdues the world to Himself by the preaching of the Gospel. It follows from this that His reign is spiritual and not after the pattern of this world." - Comm. on Acts 1:8 (Torrance, VI, 32).

Philip Schaff(1877)
"Though millenialism was supressed by the early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical sects." (Schaff's History, pg. 299 )

Seems to say it all.

1Cr 11:25After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.


BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

TC; I suggest that you read that it was not Israel as a whole that were blinded, but only in part.

1. Yes, but you need to take the whole chapter into consideration.

2. Israelites who are being saved now are chosen (v.7), but on corporate Israel there's a partial hardening until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in (v.25).

3. Are Gentiles still being saved?

John Calvin (1536)
"But a little later there followed the chiliasts, who limited the reign of Christ to a thousand years. Now their fiction is too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation. And the Apocalypse, from which they undoubtedly drew a pretext for their error does not support them. For the number "one thousand" (Rev. 20:4) does not apply to the eternal blessedness of the church but only to the various disturbances that awaited the church, while still toiling on earth."
"For when we apply to it the measure of our own understanding, what can we conceive that is not gross and earthly? So it happens that like beasts our senses attract us to what appeals to our flesh, and we grasp at what is at hand. So we see that the Chialists (i.e. those who believed that Christ would reign on earth for a thousand years) fell into a like error. Jesus intended to banish from the disciples' minds a false impression regarding the earthly kingdom: for that, as He points out in a few words, consists of the preaching of the Gospel. They have no cause therefore to dream of wealth, luxury, power in the world or any other earthly thing when they hear that Christ is reigning when He subdues the world to Himself by the preaching of the Gospel. It follows from this that His reign is spiritual and not after the pattern of this world." - Comm. on Acts 1:8 (Torrance, VI, 32).

4. Calvin got it wrong. Classic premillennialism was the order of the day until Augustine. Calvin has to ignore all those unfulfilled prophecies to Israel to get his Amil position. What are we supposed to do with those unfulfilled prophecies to Israel? Are we to spiritualize them to the church?

Philip Schaff(1877)
"Though millenialism was supressed by the early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical sects." (Schaff's History, pg. 299 )

5. Is Schaff prepared to call Justin the Martyr and Iranaeus and others heretics?

1Cr 11:25After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.

6. No one doubts that we are under the NC, but we need to take into consideration its complete unfolding, keeping eschatologicl Israel in mind.

 

[Brother Bob]

2. Israelites who are being saved now are chosen (v.7), but on corporate Israel there's a partial hardening until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in (v.25).

Well, when you said we need to take the whole scripture, you fail to do so.


Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Here it says that only SOME of the branches be broken off.

Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
Here it says only some of them might be saved that were cut off.


Rom 9:6¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Only a partial saving!

3. Are Gentile still being saved?

How do you know that is what it means, why does it not mean the fullness of when salvation has come to the Gentiles, which has already happened.

4. Calvin got it wrong. Classic premillennialism was the order of the day until Augustine. Calvin has to ignore all those unfulfilled prophecies to Israel to get his Amil position. What are we supposed to do with those unfulfilled prophecies to Israel? Are we to spiritualize them to the church?

You are wrong, there were only a few holding to the MK, and they were brought before the church for teaching it, including Justin.

5. Is Schaff prepared to call Justin the Martyr and Iranaeus and others heretics?

History by Schaff, is well accepted.

6. No one doubts that we are under the NC, but we need to take into consideration its complete unfolding, keeping eschatologicl Israel in mind.

I keep them in mind and its being fulfilled as we speak, even Paul was going to try and save some. I think the fullness of time is already come and all things both in Heaven and on Earth have become as one in Christ Jesus. Do you think there is one way for Israel and another for the Gentiles, when we were grafted into them????

Talking about the early belief of MK:

Early beliefs on Millenium
According to the account of Genmulins of Marseilles, tie Dugmatt. Erclemnxt. c. 55, p. 32
The Chiliasts may be divided into four classes. The first class were the most moderate. They are called Melitians ; and expected a fulfilment of the divine promises here on the earth, without attempting to define the nature of the bliss to be enjoyed during the millennium. The second class expected not only to enjov the indispensable indulgences of appetite, but also marriage pleasures, and every species of sensual indulgence. The third class promised themselves indeed sensitive delights, and these too as rewards for foregoing them now, and as a compensation for the outward sufferings of saints ; but they excluded from them the carnal pleasure of sexual intercourse. The fourth was composed of Nepos and his followers. The millennial doctrine did not prevail every where, and uncontradicted. Yet the believers and the rejecters of the doctrine treated each other with affection, and a person might believe or discard it, without bringing his orthodoxy under suspicion. The first open opposer of Chiliasm that we meet with, was Cajus teacher in the church of Rome, towards the end of the second century. He denied that the Apolcolipse was written by John, and ascribed it rather to Cerinthus. But he effected very little. Origen was a more powerful opposer of the doctrine. He did not, like Cains, deny the canonical authority of the Apocalypse, but explained the passages in it which describe the millennial reign of Christ, allegorically, as referring to spiritual delights, suited to the nature of spirits raised to perfection, and these to be enjoyed, not on the earth, but in the world to come. See Mosheim, Comment, de Rebus Christannr. p. 720, &c. and Dr. Walch, Histoire der Kelzerejen, vol. ii. p. 136—151. &??] * See Eusebius, Hist. Eccles. vii. 24,

1 Sec Origen, de Principis, lib. ii. C 11. Op. tom i. p. 104, and Prolog.
Comment, in Cantic: Canticor. tom. iii. p. 28. — [The Cerinthians, Marcionites, Montañista, and Melitians, among the heretical sects, and among the orthodox fathers Papias, Justin Martyr, and Irenauis, held to a millennial reign of Christ,
and Irenauis understood it in a very gross sense. Dr. Mosheim, in his Comment, de. Refuis Chistiatior. ¡ce. p. 721, believe that the doctrine had a Jewish origin ; and he supposed the Christian
doctors to have received, or at least tolerated it, because they hoped by it to make the Jews more willing to embrace Christianity. But Dr. Walch, in his Enturur feiner volisnijen Hist, der Kertzergen, vol. ii. p. 14, is more discriminating, and maintains that the question, whether
a millennial reign of Christ is to be expected, had a biblical origin, the earlier Chiliasts relying on the testimony of the Apolcalipse : but the explanation of the doctrine was derived from the Jewish
opinions. There were two kinds of Chiliasts, the gross and the refined. The latter placed the chief differences between the millennial reign of Christ and his present reign, in the higher enjoyment
of spiritual advantages and pleasures, yet without wholly excluding the pleasures of sense. But the former expected, in the millennium, all kinds of sensual delights, and the free indulgence of all, even the most exorbitant lusts. All these gross Chiliasts are to be found not merely among the heretics ;
they may be found also among the orthodox, as the example of Irenauis proves.

Sounds like Islamic, almost with the sensual desires being fulfilled in the thousand years.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Well, when you said we need to take the whole scripture, you fail to do so.


Rom 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Here it says that only SOME of the branches be broken off.

Rom 11:14If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
Here it says only some of them might be saved that were cut off.


Rom 9:6¶Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Only a partial saving!

1. I cannot disagree with Paul, but I disagree with your use of Paul--those texts are pointing to Jews who are now being saved, but a partial hardening is NOW on Israel as a whole.

How do you know that is what it means, why does it not mean the fullness of when salvation has come to the Gentiles, which has already happened.

2. Have Acts 15:14-18 and Rom 11:25-32 been fulfilled to Israel? I see no evidence of that. Then, we must wait for these eschatological happenings.

You are wrong, there were only a few holding to the MK, and they were brought before the church for teaching it, including Justin.

History by Schaff, is well accepted.

3. I know Schaff is well-respected, so too is JND Kelly and he seems to disagree with Schaff here.

I keep them in mind and its being fulfilled as we speak, even Paul was going to try and save some. I think the fullness of time is already come and all things both in Heaven and on Earth have become as one in Christ Jesus. Do you think there is one way for Israel and another for the Gentiles, when we were grafted into them????

4. Not at all! Please don't misunderstand my brand of dispensationalism for that of Skypair and others. My brand just simply means that God still has a plan for Israel in the End Times, for this it the witness of Scripture.

Talking about the early belief of MK:

Early beliefs on Millenium
According to the account of Genmulins of Marseilles, tie Dugmatt. Erclemnxt. c. 55, p. 32
The Chiliasts may be divided into four classes. The first class were the most moderate. They are called Melitians ; and expected a fulfilment of the divine promises here on the earth, without attempting to define the nature of the bliss to be enjoyed during the millennium. The second class expected not only to enjov the indispensable indulgences of appetite, but also marriage pleasures, and every species of sensual indulgence. The third class promised themselves indeed sensitive delights, and these too as rewards for foregoing them now, and as a compensation for the outward sufferings of saints ; but they excluded from them the carnal pleasure of sexual intercourse. The fourth was composed of Nepos and his followers. The millennial doctrine did not prevail every where, and uncontradicted. Yet the believers and the rejecters of the doctrine treated each other with affection, and a person might believe or discard it, without bringing his orthodoxy under suspicion. The first open opposer of Chiliasm that we meet with, was Cajus teacher in the church of Rome, towards the end of the second century. He denied that the Apolcolipse was written by John, and ascribed it rather to Cerinthus. But he effected very little. Origen was a more powerful opposer of the doctrine. He did not, like Cains, deny the canonical authority of the Apocalypse, but explained the passages in it which describe the millennial reign of Christ, allegorically, as referring to spiritual delights, suited to the nature of spirits raised to perfection, and these to be enjoyed, not on the earth, but in the world to come. See Mosheim, Comment, de Rebus Christannr. p. 720, &c. and Dr. Walch, Histoire der Kelzerejen, vol. ii. p. 136—151. &??] * See Eusebius, Hist. Eccles. vii. 24,

1 Sec Origen, de Principis, lib. ii. C 11. Op. tom i. p. 104, and Prolog.
Comment, in Cantic: Canticor. tom. iii. p. 28. — [The Cerinthians, Marcionites, Montañista, and Melitians, among the heretical sects, and among the orthodox fathers Papias, Justin Martyr, and Irenauis, held to a millennial reign of Christ,
and Irenauis understood it in a very gross sense. Dr. Mosheim, in his Comment, de. Refuis Chistiatior. ¡ce. p. 721, believe that the doctrine had a Jewish origin ; and he supposed the Christian
doctors to have received, or at least tolerated it, because they hoped by it to make the Jews more willing to embrace Christianity. But Dr. Walch, in his Enturur feiner volisnijen Hist, der Kertzergen, vol. ii. p. 14, is more discriminating, and maintains that the question, whether
a millennial reign of Christ is to be expected, had a biblical origin, the earlier Chiliasts relying on the testimony of the Apolcalipse : but the explanation of the doctrine was derived from the Jewish
opinions. There were two kinds of Chiliasts, the gross and the refined. The latter placed the chief differences between the millennial reign of Christ and his present reign, in the higher enjoyment
of spiritual advantages and pleasures, yet without wholly excluding the pleasures of sense. But the former expected, in the millennium, all kinds of sensual delights, and the free indulgence of all, even the most exorbitant lusts. All these gross Chiliasts are to be found not merely among the heretics ;
they may be found also among the orthodox, as the example of Irenauis proves.

5. JND Kelly in his Early Christian Doctrines seems to disagree again.

Sounds like Islamic, almost with the sensual desires being fulfilled in the thousand years.

6. There's a simple explanation for this echo, and it is called a distortion of Scripture on the End Times.

 

[Brother Bob]

6. There's a simple explanation for this echo, and it is called a distortion of Scripture on the End Times

There is earlier history than J.N.D. Kelly, it seems
Did the Apostle John call Cerinthus a liar???

The Millennium doctrine started in an ungodly heretic by the name of Cerinthus, who lived in the first century. It is true that the Jews generally believed that the Messiah would establish a literal or earthly kingdom. And even some of them believed that Messiah's reign would last a thousand years. We here give an extract from Neander's History of Christian Dogmas, Vol. 1, Page 248.

"The idea of a Millennial reign proceeded from Judaism; for among the Jews the representation was current that the Messiah would reign a thousand years upon earth. . . . Such products of Jewish imagination passed over into Christianity."
As before stated, Cerinthus was the first to attempt to introduce this doctrine under Christianity. Let history speak. In Eusebius's Ecclesiastical History, Book III, Chapter 28, is preserved a fragment from the writings of Caius, who lived about the close of the second century, which gives us the following account of Cerinthus's heresy:
"But Cerinthus, too, through revelations written, as he would have us believe, by a great apostle, brings before us marvelous things, which he pretends were shown him by angels; alleging that after the resurrection the kingdom of Christ is to be on earth, and that the flesh dwelling in Jerusalem is again to be subject to desires and pleasures. And being an enemy to the scriptures of God, wishing to deceive men, he says that there is to be space of a thousand years for marriage festivities." "One of the doctrines he taught was, that Christ would have an earthly kingdom."
This is the true origin of the Millennium theory. The reader will observe how lightly our author speaks of Cerinthus's idea of the kingdom of Christ being set up on earth after the resurrection. He says this doctrine was
"something which he [Cerinthus] pretends was shown to him by angels."
Caius must therefore have believed the orthodox teachings of the scriptures, that Christ's kingdom was set up at his first coming. Observe also that Caius calls Cerinthus "an enemy to the scriptures of God," and one who was "wishing to deceive men." This language he uses with special reference to the one thousand years Cerinthus claimed would be spent in sensuality. Notice also that Cerinthus believed in an earthly kingdom.
Cerinthus lived in the days of the apostle John. We will now call your attention to the attitude of the beloved apostle toward this Millennial teacher.
Irenaeus, who was born about 120 A. D. and was acquainted with Polycarp, the disciple of John,
[Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., V. 24], states that while John was at Ephesus, he entered a bath to wash and found that Cerinthus was within, and refused to bathe in the same bath house, but left the building, and exhorted those with him to do the same, saying, "Let us flee, lest the bath fall in, as long as Cerinthus, that enemy of the truth, is within."—Eusebius's Eccl. Hist., III. 28. ​

 

[pinoybaptist]

Hebrew 8:
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10: For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12: For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

according to a friend of mine, who also pastors the church we go to, yes we are. he's a Reformed Baptist of the New Covenant Theology.

 

[Brother Bob]

according to a friend of mine, who also pastors the church we go to, yes we are. he's a Reformed Baptist of the New Covenant Theology.

I agree, it just throws a kink in the eschatology of some on the MK, is why I posted the thread to give them a chance to give answers for their belief.

BBob,

 

[skypair]

How can one be saved other than through Christ?

You pose a great question for non-dispensationalists. A conunudrum since Christ came 4000 years into history -- how can those before be save "in Him?"

Here's the answer: faith in God. God told Adam "and her seed shall bruise his head." That is ALL the OT saints at first had to go on. That "gospel of the kingdom" was all they needed to be JUSTIFIED, given the "righteousness of God."

That is the first thing that happens to YOU when you are saved. You are accepted with God. Then (NT) you are "translated into the kingdom of His dear Son" --- SANCTIFIED in Christ (since He has come already). How could the OT saints be sanctified in Christ, LeBuick?? How could they be sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit if Christ had not risen?

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I LOVE that verse! The OT saints "come by Me" in the MK. They were justified unto salvation and died. Now, postrib Mt 24:31, they are raised to earth (Job 19:25-28, Psa 50:3-5, etal.), to "come by" Christ!! -- "born again!! Look at Isa 66:8!!

28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.
29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

No more Children paying for the sin's of their father.

No, now you got this interpretation wrong. Their earthly DESTINY is predicated on their fathers sins but you know good and well that their spiritual destiny is predicated on what they did individually with Christ. Is that not right?

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

This almost says no more National religion like Israel or Judaism; everyone must come to their own saving knowledge?

It DOES say that. We are in a difference dispensation, LeB. That is just another proof that there is NO "sin guilt" attached to the "sin nature" that we ALL inherit!

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

This day has come and the New Covenant has been made.

But NOT with Israel and Judah. You are "hitting all the high points" on why RT and CT are WRONG! The church is not Israel and Judah, is it. Instead God made a new covenant with "spiritual Israel" -- those of the "seed of Abraham" who followed him in FAITH, not in RACE or NATION.

Very crucial verse, this is in no way a continuation of the past covenant which they broke... This is a new Covenant...

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Doesn't this sound like the Net Testemant to you?

Man, I could just KISS you ("holy kiss" mind you)!! Yes! Wonderful!! But not with Israel yet. Not with those who were being addressed in Jeremiah! They were JEWS by race, by religion, and by nation. God will fulfill this completely and literally!

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Again, it is not a national Israel, each one must come to their own saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Paul even applied this verse to us -- the church. You are right to that extent. The new covenant has come to a spiritual people -- not FULLY as promised, to Israel herself PHYSICALLY.

I want you to imagine the MK, LeB. Saints resurrected by the Spirit even in like bodies as Jesus was born into!! They will not sin. They cannot die the 2nd death. They will not procreate. And totally led by the Spirit. Not as we are, still looking to the flesh, no. But living in an "Adamic Kingdom" with every need met and bountifully! Not even any "tree of knowledge of good and evil" to tempt! THAT is what God was promising!

skypair

 

[Brother Bob]