Are we living under the New Covenant??

[DeafPosttrib]

Premills believe there will be literal kingdom set up in modern earthly Jerusalem for millennial kingdom.

Christ told us, the kingdom comes not with observation, it is spiritual from above, and it is within us. Christ already bring kingdom 2000 years ago. Amills do believe kingdom is a literal, not myth or fanastic or novel. It is reality, it is from above. Right now, the kingdom is spiritual, when Christ shall come, it shall becomes spiritual and physical reunity together for foever and ever.

Abraham was not looking forward for earthly city, he was looking for eternity heavenly city in Hebrews 11:10 "For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God."

Today's modern Jerusalem is not a perfect city. That city is built by men. God allows them built it. That city will not be last forever, it will be destroyed at the second advent. We do not looking at old modern city Jerusalem, because itself will be destroyed.

We are looking for perfect eternality city, which God makes, and we shall dwell in it.

By the way, God is not dwell in that old modern city Jerusalem, because, he is holy. That city is filled of sins and chaos.

Bible tells us, New Jersualem shall be bring down from third heaven to new earth, and we shall dwell in it forever and ever that will be follow at the second coming.

Also, in Hebrews 11:16 says, "But NOW they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

This verse is clear telling us, we have a better country, which is heavenly from above, where God dwells.

Notice last part of verse 16 says, "he hath prepared for them a city." This verse is refer to John 14:1-3.

Also, in Heb. 12:22 says, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels."

This verse telling us, we are come to God's place, where He dwells, it is heavenly city. Which is speak of New Jerusalem of Revelation chapter 21.

Nowhere in the Bible saying that Christ shall sit in that present old modern city Jersualem for millennial kingdom. Bible clears telling us, this old present earth shall be destroyed with fire, so, we are eager looking forward for new heavens and a new earth follow at the second advent - 2 Peter 3:10-13. After Chrust creates new earth, He shall send New Jerusalem descends from the third heaven, to land on new earth, and we shall dwell in New Jerusalem on new earth forever and ever, that what I am looking for! Amen? AMEN! :thumbs:

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I would like to tell you something about covenant.

Many premills believe Jeremiah 31:31-34 is not yet fulfilled, it is yet to come is future that shall be at second advent for millennial kingdom.

Let me tell you on covenant.

Daniel 9:24-27 talking about prophecy of the new covenant. Seventy weeks means 70 x 7 = 490 years. I believe Daniel was penned it around nearly 500 B.C. while he was capivity under Babylon.

There is no gap in Dan. 9:26-27 as what many pretribs teaching.

Verse 26 tells us, Messiah(Christ) was cut off after 69th week by calvary. By the follow next verse 27 says that, during in the midst of 70th week, Christ shall make confirm with many, which is speak of new covenant. It already fulfilled at Calvary by through his blood and sacrifice. Also, verse 27 tells us, Christ shall causes daily sacrifices to be desolation. It already fulfilled at Calvary - Matt. 27:50-51, when Christ yields up his soul at cross, immediately the viel of the templ was torn down from top to bottom. It shows that God do not need daily sacrifices anymore. Because Christ IS our sacrifice. Also, Dan. 9:27 leads to the destruction of temple in 70 A.D. by Roman army.

We are not longer under the old covenant anymore. We do not need animal sacrifices, we do not need high priests anymore. We do not need earthly building of temple anymore. Christ is our sacrifice, and Christ is the temple. Also, Christ IS the covenant.

We only need the new covenant is Jesus Christ.

Christ already made new covenant with us by calvary 2000 years ago.

Now, we are in the New covenant.

That is what the Bible teaching us all about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Brother Bob]

Amen DeafPosttrib We certainly under the New Covenant promised to Israel and the Gentiles were grafted in by the breaking down of the middle wall of partition by the blood of Christ.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Amen DeafPosttrib We certainly under the New Covenant promised to Israel and the Gentiles were grafted in by the breaking down of the middle wall of partition by the blood of Christ.

BBob,

But Gentiles are grafted in because of a temporary hardening and then God returns to Israel; that is what the rest of the text says.

 

[Brother Bob]

But Gentiles are grafted in because of a temporary hardening and then God returns to Israel; that is what the rest of the text says.

Everything goes back to Christ, you should know that, it was His blood that made all things possible.

Eph. 2:
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Please read the bold very closely TC;,

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Everything goes back to Christ, you should know that, it was His blood that made all things possible.

Eph. 2:
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Please read the bold very closely TC;,

BBob,

Do you mean to pit Paul against himself, Romans 11 against Ephesians 2? A better approach would be to understand both texts in light of the whole of Scripture and God's promises to ethnic Israel.

 

[TCGreek]

According to James, God is taking a people from among the Gentiles, then he'll turn once more to Israel (Acts 15:12-18). Has God already taken a people from among the Gentiles?

 

[Brother Bob]

Eph. 2:
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Please read the bold very closely TC;,

You tell me,

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Eph. 2:
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Please read the bold very closely TC;,

You tell me,

BBob,

1. Yes, under the NC both Jews and Gentiles make up the church, for that is a benefit of the shed-blood of Christ. But do not mistake the church with the MK.

2. Both Jews and Gentiles are going to be saved, but this is hardly a fulfillment of Romans 11:25-32.

 

[TCGreek]

Has God taken a people from the Gentiles yet?

 

[Brother Bob]

Has God taken a people from the Gentiles yet?

Yes, He has done everything necessary for the Gentile to receive Salvation and for the last 2000 years they have. Also, there were Gentiles before the coming of Christ who became Israel and accepted their God. Also, David Grandfather's mother was a Gentile, who accepted Israel's God, so in reality, David had some Gentile blood in him.

Paul believed that the "fulness of the Gentiles" had come, why can't you???

Rom 11:33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

When Jesus died, it served many purposes and the bringing in of the Gentiles just part of it.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Yes, He has done everything necessary for the Gentile to receive Salvation and for the last 2000 years they have. Also, there were Gentiles before the coming of Christ who became Israel and accepted their God. Also, David Grandfather's mother was a Gentile, who accepted Israel's God, so in reality, David had some Gentile blood in him.

Paul believed that the "fulness of the Gentiles" had come, why can't you???

Rom 11:33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

When Jesus died, it served many purposes and the bringing in of the Gentiles just part of it.

BBob,

1. Acts 15:12-18 is not addressing How God is doing it, but Rather What He is doing and What will happening to ethnic Israel after the What He is doing among the Gentiles.

2. But you continue to rephrase Scripture to fit your theology.

 

[Brother Bob]

1. Acts 15:12-18 is not addressing How God is doing it, but Rather What He is doing and What will happening to ethnic Israel after the What He is doing among the Gentiles.

2. But you continue to rephrase Scripture to fit your theology.__________________

Not at all, I keep using Romans 11: and if there is any twisting, Apostle Paul did it before I got here.
You can't explain Paul talking about those who were blinded that salvation might come to the Gentile and then Paul saying that he might save some of them, can you?

Don't you agree there was just one blinding that took place?

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

Not at all, I keep using Romans 11: and if there is any twisting, Apostle Paul did it before I got here.
You can't explain Paul talking about those who were blinded that salvation might come to the Gentile and then Paul saying that he might save some of them, can you?

Don't you agree there was just one blinding that took place?

BBob,

If there's no eschatology future for ethnic Israel that you and I would be butting heads. Don't you think so?

 

[Brother Bob]

If there's no eschatology future for ethnic Israel that you and I would be butting heads. Don't you think so?

We get along pretty good TC; I enjoy debating with you. You don't let me off easy, I have to prove ever thing to you by scripture and that is the way I like it.

Scripture is plain, when the middle wall of partition was broken down, it is no longer two, it is one and there is an eschatology for Israel and the Gentiles and it will be all that believe that Jesus is the Christ and You have helped me a lot, I am old but continue to learn and the way you debate, you force me to search the scripture and tell it as scripture tells it. There are sometimes just one word in scripture that gives it a whole new meaning. I had an Uncle once, tell me when I first started. He said "Bob" read every word, and now I know what he meant. He is no longer with me, but I admire him for how he treated me. I assume by "ethnic Israel" you mean "true" Israel and not just the flesh. It has been a pleasure knowing you.

BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

We get along pretty good TC; I enjoy debating with you. You don't let me off easy, I have to prove ever thing to you by scripture and that is the way I like it.

1. Yes, BBob, we get along quite well and I enjoy debating with you too.

Scripture is plain, when the middle wall of partition was broken down, it is no longer two, it is one and there is an eschatology for Israel and the Gentiles and it will be all that believe that Jesus is the Christ and You have helped me a lot, I am old but continue to learn and the way you debate, you force me to search the scripture and tell it as scripture tells it.

2. I understand your line of reasoning. I used to be there too, but I had to do too much spiritualizing of Scripture when it didn't fit a plain reading in reference to the church.

3. Yes, per the NC, both Jews and Gentiles are one in the church, but the church didn't frustrate the eschatological plans that God has for Israel.

4. When you say the church has replaced Israel in God's plan, you have to answer for the unfulfilled plans God has for Israel. And if you don't, you would have spiritualized them to the church.

5. I cannot read Acts 15:12-18 and Rom 11:25-32 and say that God is done with Israel according to the flesh.

6. Like many others, I do not accept your interpretation of these texts.

There are sometimes just one word in scripture that gives it a whole new meaning. I had an Uncle once, tell me when I first started. He said "Bob" read every word, and now I know what he meant. He is no longer with me, but I admire him for how he treated me. I assume by "ethnic Israel" you mean "true" Israel and not just the flesh. It has been a pleasure knowing you.

BBob,

7. I mean physical Israel. Have Jer 31:31-35 and Zech 12-14 been fulfilled to Israel, no the church but Israel.

 

[Brother Bob]

4. When you say the church has replaced Israel in God's plan, you have to answer for the unfulfilled plans God has for Israel. And if you don't, you would have spiritualized them to the church.

No replacement, just both under the same roof. If we don't accept the fact that true Israel was brought under the new covenant, then we have to start making up theories of a second coming of the Messiah, to bring the new covenant again.

7. I mean physical Israel. Have Jer 31:31-35 and Zech 12-14 been fulfilled to Israel, no the church but Israel.
__________________

All physical Israel, will not be saved, just the remnant the true Israel. If that were so, then the their on the left was saved also, he probably was a Israelite. Scripture says not all physical will be saved. IMO

Nite,


BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

No replacement, just both under the same roof. If we don't accept the fact that true Israel was brought under the new covenant, then we have to start making up theories of a second coming of the Messiah, to bring the new covenant again.

1. The prophecies for Israel are for Israel alone, not the Gentiles. When God prophesied about the Gentiles, they had their prophecies too, as in Acts 15:12-18 and so on.

2. Why do we need to turn around and apply what was for Israel to include Gentiles also. Do you turn around and apply what was for Gentiles to Israel? Not at all!

All physical Israel, will not be saved, just the remnant the true Israel. If that were so, then the their on the left was saved also, he probably was a Israelite. Scripture says not all physical will be saved. IMO

Nite,


BBob,

3. We both agree to that.

Nite too.

 

[Brother Bob]

2. Why do we need to turn around and apply what was for Israel to include Gentiles also. Do you turn around and apply what was for Gentiles to Israel? Not at all!

Then why do you claim that the Gentiles are under the New Covenant that was to be given to Israel??

BBob,

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Church does not replace Israel. Israel is now expanding since God grafted Gentiles on same tree, which believing Jews are remain on it. There is only one tree. Tree represents Jesus Christ. Jews were removed from the tree, because of their unbelief, only remain Jews on tree because of their belief.

Nothing say anywhere in the New Testament that, there will be future physical nation of Israel.

Not a single verse in the New Testament mention about nation in the future.

Not even, in Romans chapter 11 saying anything about nation. Romans chapter 11 talks about salvation of individual. Tree pictured as salvation same with John chapter 15. When you received Christ, you are on the vine/tree. If you are not abide or stop believing afterward, you would be cut off from the vine as branch same as removed from the tree - John 15:6; and Romans 11:19-23.

Ephesians chapter 2 is not talking about nation. It is talk about salvation of Calvary. We as Gentiles were lost, strangers, aliens, spearated from the commonwealth of Israel. But, NOW we are reconciled with Jews became one through calvary. Christ fulfilled it. Now, we are commonwealth of Israel. Commonwealth means citizenship as member belong to Israel.

Even, in Galatians chapter 3 talks about seed. That chapter is not talk about nation. It talks about salvation in Jesus Christ. When we have faith in Christ, we are belong to Christ's, same as Jews have faith in Christ, are belong to Christ's.

Church doesn't replace Israel. Church is Israel, Israel is Church. Church means God's people. Israel means God's place.

Even, Jesus is Israel. When we have faith in him, we are belong to Christ, just same as Jews have faith in him, they are belong to Christ. God only one family.

There is no divided in New Jerusalem. There is only one family in New Jerusalem. Anyone who believe in Christ, they are in the same city, where God dwells, we shall dwell with him forever and ever.

Dispensationalism doctrine makes New Jerusalem looks divided. I do not agree with it.

Dispensationalism believes the new covenant is not yet fulfilled right now, it will be fulfilled in MK follow second advent. Yet, they saying we are now in the new covenant, but "Israel" is not yet in the new covenant, they will receive new covenant in MK at second coming. Where did they get the idea come from?

Dispensationalism intepreting 'Israel' errorly as not what the New Testament actual teaching it. I believe they are twisting God's Word on 'Israel' and 'Church' to make them into two peoples.

At the Lord's supper, Christ told his disciples, this wine IS the "new testament", which speak of his blood. CHrist's blood already cleansed all our sins by Calvary, NOW we are under the new covenant. No longer we are under the old covenant anymore.

During Lord's supper, Christ was not discuss about nation, he was discuss about salvation.

The new covenant is all about salvation which is in Jesus Christ.

Disopensationalists saying of Jeremiah 31:31-35 is focus on Israel only, not to the Church.

Maybe they are right.

But, apostle Paul told us, we are part of the new covenant, because we believed in Christ, we are belong to Christ's.

I am sure that, in Dispensationalism's view:

Israel - Jews
Church- Gentiles.


But, not what the Bible actual teaching.

God told Abraham that, he is the father of MANY NATIONS, obivously means, he is the father of Gentiles, not just for Jews only.

Apostle Paul was right that if we(Gentiles) believe in Christ, we are already belogn to seed.

Jesus Christ IS the seed.

Just alike as Christ is Tree, Christ is vine.

All throughout Bible focus on Jesus Christ.

Nothing say anything in the Bible that suggest, there will be future ethnic nation of Israel again beyond the new covenant or Calvary.


All in the Bible is talk aout Jesus Christ. If you are in Christ, you are already belong to seed. If you are in Christ, you are already belong to vine. If you are in Christ, you are already belong to tree. If you are in Christ, you are already belong to new covenant.

'Testament' is same as covenant. Covenant means promise.

New Testament or covenant is all about SALVATION in Jesus Christ, not nation in MK.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!