...thank you nodak. Thank you for your understanding.
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Are We Playing Church?
- Thread starter HAMel
- Start date
...thank you nodak. Thank you for your understanding.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
The only problem being is that he hasn't expressed that he is CONVERSING with the people with whom he needs to converse. He's talking to us about his offense.
There is more to the story than is on this thread, which I have now been apprised of. I really think you are judging Hamel too sharply.[/QUOTE]
Well that would be kinda unfair considering you just mentioned that he has perhaps shared a little bit more with you outside the thread than he has publicly made known.
I stand on what I said based upon what he has publicly said in this thread. The real problem has not been addressed with the pastor.
The same sex marriage issue and amending the SOF is a separate issue to be taken up with the pastor and the church board.
But the pastor offended him. And if he feels wronged, it should be addressed in the proper BIBLICAL manner.
People are always getting offended because the pastor doesn't say or do things the way they think things should be done. But if you submit to the pastor upon joining the church because God told you to, then there is no reason to not submit to the same pastor's judgment in issues of the church unless he is SCRIPTURALLY or MORALLY unaligned with God's word.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
And this is what people who have been offended do. They look for someone to tell that they were right to be offended. And you may be rightly offended. I don't know because you still haven't expressed that you have BIBLICALLY addressed the perceived offense with the pastor you say offended.
Some on here sound like they just have a problem with humility and submission when it comes to pastors and church leadership. They are essential in the Christian walk.
And if the pastor has not done anything SCRIPTURALLY or MORALLY incorrect in terms of the SOF, there should be no reason for such a division.
Some of us understand that morally and scripturally, WE ARE NOT UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF THE PASTOR! No matter how much he screams at us to submit.
Rather, we understand that church is a voluntary association for the propagation of the gospel, with Christ ALONE as its head. The authority Christ vests is vested IN THE LOCAL CHURCH, not the pastor. The pastor is called, authorized, and serves under that authority given by Christ to the local church.
In this case, were there any submitting called for, it would be the PASTOR who is called to submit to what the local church decides. Any member can present a motion at business meeting, and if it passes, the PASTOR should submit or resign.
No matter how many bully boys try to take Christ's role in our lives, and the Holy Spirit's role in our hearts some of us won't be bullied.
Jesus is Lord. We believe the structure of the church is clear. And verses about secular authority taken out of context, or snippets not about local pastors but applied to them, do not fool us.
My fervent prayer is we Baptists dispense with this Protestant nonsense of the "pastor" and return to PREACHERS who can and do preach under the authority of the local church which is under the authority of Jesus Christ.
Rather, we understand that church is a voluntary association for the propagation of the gospel, with Christ ALONE as its head. The authority Christ vests is vested IN THE LOCAL CHURCH, not the pastor. The pastor is called, authorized, and serves under that authority given by Christ to the local church.
In this case, were there any submitting called for, it would be the PASTOR who is called to submit to what the local church decides. Any member can present a motion at business meeting, and if it passes, the PASTOR should submit or resign.
No matter how many bully boys try to take Christ's role in our lives, and the Holy Spirit's role in our hearts some of us won't be bullied.
Jesus is Lord. We believe the structure of the church is clear. And verses about secular authority taken out of context, or snippets not about local pastors but applied to them, do not fool us.
My fervent prayer is we Baptists dispense with this Protestant nonsense of the "pastor" and return to PREACHERS who can and do preach under the authority of the local church which is under the authority of Jesus Christ.
Nodak....
This is not correct.
Could you open your bible to Hebrews 13:7 and 17.....what is stated there?
How do you obey verse 17?
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Then some of you obviously misunderstand that Scripture requires you to submit to the pastor as he has been placed there as the church's overseer. If you don't want to submit to his authority as the overseer, then you should not have joined underneath his authority.
The pastor is placed as the overseer of the church and if you don't want to submit to his authority, don't join.
Incorrect.
You sound like the bullies because you don't think you should have to submit. Must be from one of those "deacons" run the church backgrounds.
You been fooled alright. And that's why there are so many been fooled folks running around complaining about pastors not doing what they want them to do. That's why so many good pastors are removed because fooled folks think they are supposed to be the overseer instead of the overseer.
Your fervent prayer sounds like a desire for disorder that comes when a handful of folks don't think they should have to submit to anyone.
Try that with your wife and kids in your house and then come back and explain why you should not have to submit to the Christ submitting overseer in God's house.
JOJ earlier suspected the Pastor might have over stepped in this case.....he cannot be sure as he was not an eyewitness,but he has given a solid response and offered a solution to Hamel.
This is an interesting topic if it does not get micro managed.
Zaac.....you might be shaving a little to close here,lol, Nodak you need to examine the church and eldership a bit more.
This is an interesting topic if it does not get micro managed.
Zaac.....you might be shaving a little to close here,lol, Nodak you need to examine the church and eldership a bit more.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
I know Icon, lol. I again hate church division. And based upon what Hamel did share, I just don't see any reason for there to be a division over a SOF.
His issue seems to be with a possible "unwarranted" offense from the pastor that he hasn't said has been addressed with the pastor.
Yall be blessed. Be back later. My body is itching to go run some miles.
It would be foolish for any believer to REFUSE to submit to the teaching and preaching of a God Called Pastor. On the other hand, it is up to the believer to rightly divide the Word of Truth.
All pastor's that I have sat under have said things and taken scripture contrary to what I had previous been taught by another. Is one wrong and the other right? To me, an understanding of a minor issue is of no real consequence. One says tomato, the other says tomahto.
The problem in most rural churches, and the one I came face to face with, is that the ruling "family" or, "families...," will deny God Himself if it requires relinquishing any control, to anyone. Accordingly, if the pastor wants to keep his job he goes along to get along. It's really that simple.
All pastor's that I have sat under have said things and taken scripture contrary to what I had previous been taught by another. Is one wrong and the other right? To me, an understanding of a minor issue is of no real consequence. One says tomato, the other says tomahto.
The problem in most rural churches, and the one I came face to face with, is that the ruling "family" or, "families...," will deny God Himself if it requires relinquishing any control, to anyone. Accordingly, if the pastor wants to keep his job he goes along to get along. It's really that simple.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Yup.
Life was never meant to be "fair." Certainly not the BB.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Life was never meant to be "fair." Certainly not the BB.
And that's why my comments ONLY reflect what he shared publicly.
Again, I am a Baptist, not a Protestant. I am expressly told in the Bible to obey God rather than men, and to "call no man my father" which deal with the whole idea of the pastor being an authority to whom I must submit.
I am a housewife with a wonderful loving husband. But should I go to him with a suggestion the lawn needs mowing and be met with verbal abuse this submissive wife would let him know he was out line.
Hamel says he approached his pastor with a reasonable suggestion and was met with verbal abuse. He is not of line to not quietly submit.
Again, we ARE to submit to those in authority over us. Jesus makes it clear "pastors" are not our Head, He is. Since the preacher Is NOT, as per Jesus, in authority but rather the servant of the church, I will let HIM explain Hebrews. He has quite a bit to say about those who would rule over us, all of it negative.
For those who feel called and anointed to rule, He already shot you down and offers you a basin, towel, and cross instead.
I am a housewife with a wonderful loving husband. But should I go to him with a suggestion the lawn needs mowing and be met with verbal abuse this submissive wife would let him know he was out line.
Hamel says he approached his pastor with a reasonable suggestion and was met with verbal abuse. He is not of line to not quietly submit.
Again, we ARE to submit to those in authority over us. Jesus makes it clear "pastors" are not our Head, He is. Since the preacher Is NOT, as per Jesus, in authority but rather the servant of the church, I will let HIM explain Hebrews. He has quite a bit to say about those who would rule over us, all of it negative.
For those who feel called and anointed to rule, He already shot you down and offers you a basin, towel, and cross instead.
I will be the first to say I agree with nodak that a pastor is not to be abusive in their actions or speech. But I disagree in the function of a pastor. They are to lead the flock. They are to oversee the flock. They are to rule the flock. And the flock is to submit themselves, obey them, follow them, and imitate their faith. That is what Paul meant by saying "Be ye imitators of me, even as I also am of Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:1.)
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
The word translated "rule over" is ηγουμενοις which means to command with official authority.
The preceding context includes verse 7, Hebrews 13:7 Remember them that had the rule over you, which spake unto you the word of God; and considering the issue of their life, imitate their faith.
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
The word translated "rule over" is ηγουμενοις which means to command with official authority.
The preceding context includes verse 7, Hebrews 13:7 Remember them that had the rule over you, which spake unto you the word of God; and considering the issue of their life, imitate their faith.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Nope. That's just the errant way you have chosen to look at it. Nobody has told you to call the pastor "father". He IS the overseer of the local church body. And the congregants are to submit to his Christ submitting leadership.
Verbal abuse is NOT in submission to Christ.
no one told him to quietly submit to verbal abuse.
You frankly sound like you just have a problem humbling yourself to submit.
Zaac
Well-Known Member
Absolutely TC. I'm not sure where she perceived that someone had demanded that Hamel submit to verbal abuse.
Nope, better than 98% of all the Church Universal. In the mid-eighties survey conducted by the Barna Group of the Cross Denominational Christian Church did not believe things like the Virgin Birth, that Jesus died on the cross for their sins, that Jesus was returning to take them to Heaven, the basics any Christian Sect must believe.
That survey, as it was explained to me was intentionally, independently run in double blind fashion to get as honest as possible answers, even the pastors knew not the answers nor who gave what answer.
Only the Faithful, as defined, only those that attend service at least three times a week, were allowed to take the survey. This, as I've learned amounts to ten to fifteen percent, the working members of any Church.
It was these people taking the survey answering yes or no. Now, extend that out into the Church Body and you have less, much less than one in a hundred. I try to be gracious and say less than two percent, which is still not a lie but it is an attempt to be optimistic.
And dealing so closely with Church Government that I resigned that because I learned much to much about the members, I cannot teach against what the Barna people concluded, there is much evil going on inside the walls of God's Church, even the Baptist Church.
Laugh if you please, they laughed at and ridiculed my LORD for trying to open their eyes.
I'm sorry, Bill, but that doesn't make sense. The "church universal" is made up of all of the saved. It is impossible to be in the "church universal" and be lost.
Bill, you're not Jesus.