Featured Are We Playing Church?

I just want to make sure that we are speaking to the issue at hand as expressed in the OP. I abhor division in the church and have just seen too many times where people leave a church or start looking for a new church when God hasn't told them to, but they proceed to do so because somebody at their current church hurt their feelings.

 

Thank you.

Well, you do have some valid points. Far be it from me (having pastored for decades in Japan) to encourage anyone to openly oppose their pastor. But I feel this is a serious enough issue that Hamel should change churches and avoid the whole shebang--thus avoiding splitting the church and opposing the pastor more than he has. I know I certainly would change churches.

As for the gossip issue, I'll have to think that through. Is discussing the anonymous incident about un-named people in an unknown location on an anonymous Internet forum equivalent to gossip?

 

I believe there are times when leaving a church doesn't need specific guidance from the Lord. Simply following one's conscience and understanding of Bible teaching is often enough.

When the term "will of God" occurs in the NT, in most cases it is speaking of God's revealed will about morality rather than personal guidance (though I believe in that too).

 

Well, I think you should join somewhere, but I don't have a "Thus saith the Lord" on that.

God bless as you search for a new one.

 

If God so directs, absolutely. But the reasoning behind the "change" gives me pause to believe that God isn't behind this. Perhaps Hamel can expound more for us.

Yes. When the intent is to make it appear that what you have conjectured is correct and what the person you have opposed did is incorrect, it amounts to gossip to get people to agree with your POV.

 

We have no reason to doubt the pastor's attack on Hamel as a "fear-mongerer." I see that as pastoral abuse.

I didn't see it this way. Perhaps we'll simply disagree on Hamel's intent (read motive)--which neither of us can truly know.

 

I would disagree because that again, conflicts with Scripture and In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct" your paths. Pro. 3:6

Yes, but that revealed will NEVER goes against what Scripture says.

 

Yes, but this verse does not say how God will direct. It could be through individual leading by the Holy Spirit, by one's conscience, or by Scripture.

That was precisely my point! Scripture = God's revealed will (as in the doctrine of revelation).

 

Possibly. But it also may have just been a bad choice of words from the pastor in what he believes to be the incitement of fear air surrounding this issue in the church.

Does the church do an outreach to gays and lesbians and could the pastor possibly be trying to measure the church's response and balance it in love to make sure he doesn't drive off the very folks Christ wants to save?

Could it be that Hamel and the pastor just have different approaches to dealing with this issue? If so, Hamel is to submit to the pastor's leadership unless it is unScriptural or immoral.

 

Individual leading or the conscience should be in alignment with the Holy Spirit and Scripture.

And obedience to that revealed will is the truth by which the Holy Spirit leads us.

 

Ask Hamel these questions, don't ask me.

 

Tell you what, I'll be the last person in the world to question another's personal guidance from the Holy Spirit unless it is obviously against Scripture. So far I've seen nothing from Hamel along that line, but I do see the pastor as not obeying Scripture which was specifically written to pastors:

1Tim. 5:1 "Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren."

Titus 3:2 "To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men."

 

Did you address that WITH the pastor?

No. You're surmising again as to that being the why. Have you addressed this aspect with the pastor? If you feel he has wronged you, address it with him.

God has commissioned you to make disciples who obey. HE will protect the church as the church obeys. It is NOT our job.

Well I guess you won't know for what reason as you don't seem to want to address this with the pastor.

 

Has Hamel said that he's gone to the pastor about this seemed wrong done to him by the pastor? It continues to be the big white unScriptural elephant in the room.

 

Hamel--yes, I would say many of our churches are just playing church.

Welcome to flog the faithful flock land.

You have not gossiped seeing as you gave the information without revealing who was involved other than yourself. And here you have encountered the shut up and pay up and never challenge the pastor mentality that gives us these hirelings.

You have one high Priest--Jesus! You owe Him and Him only blind obedience.

We recently dealt with this issue. Our pastor would refuse to do a gay wedding but otherwise wants to not discuss the issue for fear of offending "them."

I sought the Lord in prayer one morning to ask if we should change churches. Before supper our pastor resigned.

Should we ever feel the need to leave this church we too will not be likely to join another, just visit repeatedly.

We are done being under narcissists that will not take a stand against evil but are very brave in attacking the flock.

 

That may be your white elephant, but mine is the pastor who unscripturally attacked an elderly believer--unless you are willing to call Hamel a liar, which you are close to doing by calling it a "seemed wrong."

Whether or not Hamel should go or has gone to the pastor once more about this, that is none of your or my business. That is between the pastor and Hamel.

Pr 26:17 "He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears."

 

Already addressed this. If Hamel felt wronged, Hamel STILL hasn't expressed that he handled it in the Biblically prescribed way when one Brother feels wronged by another.

If that's none of our business, then neither was any of this story. don't feed this division just because his feelings were hurt. He needs to address this directly with the pastor. Otherwise he is out of God's order in attempting to look for another church.

This is why what he says amounts to gossip because this is exactly the sort of stuff folks do when things have not been addressed in a Christ-honoring manner. You get all sorts of speculation about why we THINK someone did something instead of "this is what the pastor said when I asked him about my perceived wrong".

It HAS NOT been addressed in the Biblical manner.

 

I see the OP as a legitimate way to start a conversation about the need (or not) for churches to face what is happening in our country in the area of homosexual "marriage." A good discussion has occurred regarding the need (or not) for churches to address this in their official documents.

There is more to the story than is on this thread, which I have now been apprised of. I really think you are judging Hamel too sharply.