Are We Playing Church?

[Zaac]

Getting hot in here, eh what?

I just want to make sure that we are speaking to the issue at hand as expressed in the OP. I abhor division in the church and have just seen too many times where people leave a church or start looking for a new church when God hasn't told them to, but they proceed to do so because somebody at their current church hurt their feelings.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree John. But this is NOT being handled, from what Hamel expressed, in the Scripturally prescribed way that would say he is making an issue of this for the right reason. From what he has presented and the way in which he conjectured about why he THINKS the pastor made the decision he did, just doesn't, IMO again, speak to the right level of spiritual maturity in this instance.

Again, I completely agree.

Thank you.

I disagree because IMO, Hamel, is in the wrong. He was offended by the pastor's response to beefing up the SOF and he has possibly/possibly not surmised correctly/incorrectly about why the pastor did not want to beef up the SOF, rather than addressing his issue again with the pastor.

Instead, he has chosen to surmise about why the pastor did not respond in agreement with what he (Hamel) thinks should be done. This is GOSSIP.

Hamel didn't say anything about the pastor having not affirmed at any time that he believes or doesn't believe in marriage as defined by Scripture.

He just didn't think it warranted a change to the SOF.

Congregants need to learn how to submit to a pastor's leadership. And again, if the pastor is not doing something unScriptural or immoral, side with his judgment in the leadership of the church as you did when you joined.

Well, you do have some valid points. Far be it from me (having pastored for decades in Japan) to encourage anyone to openly oppose their pastor. But I feel this is a serious enough issue that Hamel should change churches and avoid the whole shebang--thus avoiding splitting the church and opposing the pastor more than he has. I know I certainly would change churches.

As for the gossip issue, I'll have to think that through. Is discussing the anonymous incident about un-named people in an unknown location on an anonymous Internet forum equivalent to gossip?

 

[HAMel]

Let me provide some additional insights here. When I joined that church five years ago I joined as a Private. Today, I am still a Private. There are three families joined at the hip. At my age (70) I have no desire to commandeer, take over, be responsible for, or lead in any aspect of the Church but consider myself eligible to participate should the need arise. Obviously, the need never arises as folks are content with status quo.

In the meantime, I see a need in my church and offered a solution. Had my suggestion been rejected for legitimate reason's that would have been one thing. To have myself verbally attacked with startling hostility and then by innuendo be considered a "fear-monger" by my Pastor, I think that was a bit over the top.

Bottom line is..., of those three groups who have relatives in that "condition" it's quite clear we don't want to offend any of them. Or offend anyone for that matter but the things is..., WE ALL HAVE RELATIVES LIKE THAT. I had a cousin that way! He's dead now but we all have these kinds in our families. My wife's father busted hell wide open. Sin is rampant in both of our extended families.

Our focus however should be for the protection of the Church! The Word of God is very clear regarding that kind of lifestyle (and sin in general) so what justification could any believer have to stand offended by a Statement of Faith? Continued Financial Contributions? ...give me a break.

 

[John of Japan]

I just want to make sure that we are speaking to the issue at hand as expressed in the OP. I abhor division in the church and have just seen too many times where people leave a church or start looking for a new church when God hasn't told them to, but they proceed to do so because somebody at their current church hurt their feelings.

I believe there are times when leaving a church doesn't need specific guidance from the Lord. Simply following one's conscience and understanding of Bible teaching is often enough.

When the term "will of God" occurs in the NT, in most cases it is speaking of God's revealed will about morality rather than personal guidance (though I believe in that too).

 

[HAMel]

John..., I will be leaving the church but have absolutely no desire to cause any problems or engage in any wrong doing's (pointing the finger-gossiping-seeking support., etc.) toward anyone there. I will quietly fade away. I will however probably never join another church. Visiting other churches on a regular basis will be the way from here on out.

 

[John of Japan]

John..., I will be leaving the church but have absolutely no desire to cause any problems or engage in any wrong doing's (pointing the finger-gossiping-seeking support., etc.) toward anyone there. I will quietly fade away. I will however probably never join another church. Visiting other churches on a regular basis will be the way from here on out.

Well, I think you should join somewhere, but I don't have a "Thus saith the Lord" on that.

God bless as you search for a new one.

 

[Zaac]

Thank you.

Well, you do have some valid points. Far be it from me (having pastored for decades in Japan) to encourage anyone to openly oppose their pastor. But I feel this is a serious enough issue that Hamel should change churches and avoid the whole shebang--thus avoiding splitting the church and opposing the pastor more than he has. I know I certainly would change churches.

If God so directs, absolutely. But the reasoning behind the "change" gives me pause to believe that God isn't behind this. Perhaps Hamel can expound more for us.

As for the gossip issue, I'll have to think that through. Is discussing the anonymous incident about un-name people in an unknown location on an anonymous Internet forum equivalent to gossip?

Yes. When the intent is to make it appear that what you have conjectured is correct and what the person you have opposed did is incorrect, it amounts to gossip to get people to agree with your POV.

 

[John of Japan]

If God so directs, absolutely. But the reasoning behind the "change" gives me pause to believe that God isn't behind this. Perhaps Hamel can expound more for us.

We have no reason to doubt the pastor's attack on Hamel as a "fear-mongerer." I see that as pastoral abuse.

Yes. When the intent is to make it appear that what you have conjectured is correct and what the person you have opposed did is incorrect, it amounts to gossip to get people to agree with your POV.

I didn't see it this way. Perhaps we'll simply disagree on Hamel's intent (read motive)--which neither of us can truly know.

 

[Zaac]

I believe there are times when leaving a church doesn't need specific guidance from the Lord. Simply following one's conscience and understanding of Bible teaching is often enough.

I would disagree because that again, conflicts with Scripture and In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct" your paths. Pro. 3:6

When the term "will of God" occurs in the NT, in most cases it is speaking of God's revealed will about morality rather than personal guidance (though I believe in that too).

Yes, but that revealed will NEVER goes against what Scripture says.

 

[John of Japan]

I would disagree because that again, conflicts with Scripture and In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct" your paths. Pro. 3:6

Yes, but this verse does not say how God will direct. It could be through individual leading by the Holy Spirit, by one's conscience, or by Scripture.

Yes, but that revealed will NEVER goes against what Scripture says.

That was precisely my point! Scripture = God's revealed will (as in the doctrine of revelation).

 

[Zaac]

We have no reason to doubt the pastor's attack on Hamel as a "fear-mongerer." I see that as pastoral abuse.

Possibly. But it also may have just been a bad choice of words from the pastor in what he believes to be the incitement of fear air surrounding this issue in the church.

Does the church do an outreach to gays and lesbians and could the pastor possibly be trying to measure the church's response and balance it in love to make sure he doesn't drive off the very folks Christ wants to save?

Could it be that Hamel and the pastor just have different approaches to dealing with this issue? If so, Hamel is to submit to the pastor's leadership unless it is unScriptural or immoral.

 

[Zaac]

Yes, but this verse does not say how God will direct. It could be through individual leading by the Holy Spirit, by one's conscience, or by Scripture.

Individual leading or the conscience should be in alignment with the Holy Spirit and Scripture.

That was precisely my point! Scripture = God's revealed will (as in the doctrine of revelation).

And obedience to that revealed will is the truth by which the Holy Spirit leads us.

 

[John of Japan]

Possibly. But it also may have just been a bad choice of words from the pastor in what he believes to be the incitement of fear air surrounding this issue in the church.

Does the church do an outreach to gays and lesbians and could the pastor possibly be trying to measure the church's response and balance it in love to make sure he doesn't drive off the very folks Christ wants to save?

Could it be that Hamel and the pastor just have different approaches to dealing with this issue? If so, Hamel is to submit to the pastor's leadership unless it is unScriptural or immoral.

Ask Hamel these questions, don't ask me.

 

[John of Japan]

Individual leading or the conscience should be in alignment with the Holy Spirit and Scripture.

Tell you what, I'll be the last person in the world to question another's personal guidance from the Holy Spirit unless it is obviously against Scripture. So far I've seen nothing from Hamel along that line, but I do see the pastor as not obeying Scripture which was specifically written to pastors:

1Tim. 5:1 "Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren."

Titus 3:2 "To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men."

 

[Zaac]

Let me provide some additional insights here. When I joined that church five years ago I joined as a Private. Today, I am still a Private. There are three families joined at the hip. At my age (70) I have no desire to commandeer, take over, be responsible for, or lead in any aspect of the Church but consider myself eligible to participate should the need arise. Obviously, the need never arises as folks are content with status quo.

In the meantime, I see a need in my church and offered a solution. Had my suggestion been rejected for legitimate reason's that would have been one thing. To have myself verbally attacked with startling hostility and then by innuendo be considered a "fear-monger" by my Pastor, I think that was a bit over the top.

Did you address that WITH the pastor?

Bottom line is..., of those three groups who have relatives in that "condition" it's quite clear we don't want to offend any of them. Or offend anyone for that matter but the things is..., WE ALL HAVE RELATIVES LIKE THAT. I had a cousin that way! He's dead now but we all have these kinds in our families. My wife's father busted hell wide open. Sin is rampant in both of our extended families.

No. You're surmising again as to that being the why. Have you addressed this aspect with the pastor? If you feel he has wronged you, address it with him.

Our focus however should be for the protection of the Church!

God has commissioned you to make disciples who obey. HE will protect the church as the church obeys. It is NOT our job.

The Word of God is very clear regarding that kind of lifestyle (and sin in general) so what justification could any believer have to stand offended by a Statement of Faith? Continued Financial Contributions? ...give me a break.

Well I guess you won't know for what reason as you don't seem to want to address this with the pastor.

 

[Zaac]

Tell you what, I'll be the last person in the world to question another's personal guidance from the Holy Spirit unless it is obviously against Scripture. So far I've seen nothing from Hamel along that line, but I do see the pastor as not obeying Scripture which was specifically written to pastors:

1Tim. 5:1 "Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren."

Titus 3:2 "To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men."

Has Hamel said that he's gone to the pastor about this seemed wrong done to him by the pastor? It continues to be the big white unScriptural elephant in the room.

 

[nodak]

Hamel--yes, I would say many of our churches are just playing church.

Welcome to flog the faithful flock land.

You have not gossiped seeing as you gave the information without revealing who was involved other than yourself. And here you have encountered the shut up and pay up and never challenge the pastor mentality that gives us these hirelings.

You have one high Priest--Jesus! You owe Him and Him only blind obedience.

We recently dealt with this issue. Our pastor would refuse to do a gay wedding but otherwise wants to not discuss the issue for fear of offending "them."

I sought the Lord in prayer one morning to ask if we should change churches. Before supper our pastor resigned.

Should we ever feel the need to leave this church we too will not be likely to join another, just visit repeatedly.

We are done being under narcissists that will not take a stand against evil but are very brave in attacking the flock.

 

[John of Japan]

Has Hamel said that he's gone to the pastor about this seemed wrong done to him by the pastor? It continues to be the big white unScriptural elephant in the room.

That may be your white elephant, but mine is the pastor who unscripturally attacked an elderly believer--unless you are willing to call Hamel a liar, which you are close to doing by calling it a "seemed wrong."

Whether or not Hamel should go or has gone to the pastor once more about this, that is none of your or my business. That is between the pastor and Hamel.

Pr 26:17 "He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears."

 

[Zaac]

That may be your white elephant, but mine is the pastor who unscripturally attacked an elderly believer--unless you are willing to call Hamel a liar, which you are close to doing by calling it a "seemed wrong."

Already addressed this. If Hamel felt wronged, Hamel STILL hasn't expressed that he handled it in the Biblically prescribed way when one Brother feels wronged by another.

Whether or not Hamel should go or has gone to the pastor once more about this, that is none of your or my business. That is between the pastor and Hamel.

If that's none of our business, then neither was any of this story. don't feed this division just because his feelings were hurt. He needs to address this directly with the pastor. Otherwise he is out of God's order in attempting to look for another church.

This is why what he says amounts to gossip because this is exactly the sort of stuff folks do when things have not been addressed in a Christ-honoring manner. You get all sorts of speculation about why we THINK someone did something instead of "this is what the pastor said when I asked him about my perceived wrong".

It HAS NOT been addressed in the Biblical manner.

 

[John of Japan]

If that's none of our business, then neither was any of this story. don't feed this division just because his feelings were hurt. He needs to address this directly with the pastor. Otherwise he is out of God's order in attempting to look for another church.

I see the OP as a legitimate way to start a conversation about the need (or not) for churches to face what is happening in our country in the area of homosexual "marriage." A good discussion has occurred regarding the need (or not) for churches to address this in their official documents.

There is more to the story than is on this thread, which I have now been apprised of. I really think you are judging Hamel too sharply.