Are we reaching men?

[Luke2427]

Charles Spurgeon preaching from Romans 16 (v. 3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila"):

"I should not wonder but he put them in order according to quality rather than according to the rule of sex. He named Priscilla, first, because she was first in energy of character and attainments in Divine Grace. There is a precedence which, in Christ, is due to the woman when she becomes the leader in devotion and manifests the stronger mind in the things of God. It is well when Nature and Grace both authorize our saying, 'Aquila and Priscilla,' but it is not amiss when Grace outruns Nature and we hear of, 'Priscilla and Aquila.'"

SO what? Who in the world disagrees with this?

What could be more meaningless than posting quotes that do not address the subject being discussed.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Yea, I've done all of that, too. What's your point??



Once again, what is your point? how have you said anything contrary to what I have purported??




Now thats a bit silly.

Love is the manliest attribute?

So when women love they are displaying the manliest attribute of all?

Can you not see how ridiculous that is?

Men should love because they are people- not because they are men.

This is part of the problem with Christians these days. When you ask them what makes a man uniquely a man they start listing stuff that women are just as suited for or more so.

This is the problem. You don't even know what being a man MEANS. You define it as being womanly or at least as doing the same things women excel in.

Being a man means changing diapers and singing high tenor and what else? being dainty (the opposite of a bull in a china shop), wearing lace, deferring to women (wait a minute!!! HA! you actually DID list that one!)

Agreed....It is an interesting fact that the first man mentioned in the Bible as being "MEEK" was Moses....yes...Moses.

Not a metro-sexual Jeremiah who was crying or squelching all the time...but MOSES...(Charleton Heston) if you prefer...
A MAN...his PRIMARY attribute was strength. "Meekness" is "strength" under control...but you have to have the "strength" first...the modern era is big on the control...nil on the strength..

 

[Luke2427]

Charles Spurgeon preaching from Romans 16 (v. 3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila"):

"I should not wonder but he put them in order according to quality rather than according to the rule of sex. He named Priscilla, first, because she was first in energy of character and attainments in Divine Grace. There is a precedence which, in Christ, is due to the woman when she becomes the leader in devotion and manifests the stronger mind in the things of God. It is well when Nature and Grace both authorize our saying, 'Aquila and Priscilla,' but it is not amiss when Grace outruns Nature and we hear of, 'Priscilla and Aquila.'"

I see your Spurgeon quote and raise you this one that is even MORE related to this thread:

"Rubber, baby, buggy bumpers!"

Now, I think we all know tha the ol' RBBB beats an unrelated Spurgeon quote.

That's just like a flush beats two pair.

I take this hand.

Your deal.

Perhaps you could play an emancipation proclamation quote and then flee without showing its relevance.

But I'll have to warn you, it looks like I have the makings of a "Peter Piper Picked a Peck of Pickled Peppers," hand!

Just thought I'd give you a heads up!

 

[InTheLight]

Is this yet another drive-by insult post- one in which you make an insulting claim offering no support and then flee for the hills?

You wrote:

We wonder why our churches are full of mostly women- it is the utter repudiation of manliness like that that so many do on this very board often.

...which is simultaneously an insult and a strawman. Your comment about men on BB admiring the style of Joel Osteen's ministry is likewise a strawman and an insulting claim with no support.

You are not even aware you do this sort of thing, which is amazingly ignorant.

I don't know how a person has a conscience that allows them to do this?

Yes, precisely, how can you do it?

Are you a man? I honestly don't know.

If you are wondering the gender of InTheLight, yes I am a male. I'm a man who does manly things in a manly manner, like pull wire, hang sheet rock, replace transmissions with other manly men, as well. <rolls eyes>

You really need to quit looking to pick fights with people by posting deliberately provocative stuff that has no basis in fact.

 

[Luke2427]

You wrote:



...which is simultaneously an insult and a strawman. Your comment about men on BB admiring the style of Joel Osteen's ministry is likewise a strawman and an insulting claim with no support.

You are not even aware you do this sort of thing, which is amazingly ignorant.

I did not claim that these men ADMIRE Osteen's ministry. I said some of them have apparently adopted the STYLE of it because they repudiate aggressiveness and call for nothing but unrelenting gentleness all of the time.

I have pointed this out ad nauseum so it is not a claim without a warrant. You have seen where I confront people for this idea that gentleness is a universal rule for all Christians all of the time. You have seen me confront them so why do you call them straw men?

If you are wondering the gender of InTheLight, yes I am a male. I'm a man who does manly things in a manly manner, like pull wire, hang sheet rock, replace transmissions with other manly men, as well. <rolls eyes>

You really need to quit looking to pick fights with people by posting deliberately provocative stuff that has no basis in fact.

Except that the FACT is that several, several men on here have repeatedly made the claim that I ought to ALWAYS be gentle. That is a FACT. It is the FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE of Joel Osteen's ministry. He AVOIDS controversy like the plague and he utterly detests the thought of ever being blunt, harsh and frank.

That is what these guys are saying I should do. That I should ALWAYS seek to be gentle in every circumstance all of the time.

John of Japan LITERALLY ARGUED that Jesus was NEVER harsh- neither was Paul he said!!!

Old Union just started a thread to lecture guys for being everything Joel Osteen would never be.

These are not straw men, ILT.

They simply are not.

 

[Herald]

I do not disagree that there has been a feminization of men in America, and the church has not been immune to this. It is judgment on the church when men abdicate their God-ordained role (Judges 4:9). That said, true manhood comes from internal character; character that has been molded by the Spirit. There are times when being a man requires being direct or even blunt. It sometimes requires confrontation of wrong doing. Conversely being a man sometimes is proven through compassion and kindness. I had the honor of watching my maternal grandfather show me what being a man was all about. He was a big strapping Italian with hands the size of tennis rackets. He exuded intimidation by his physical presence. He was firm, yet kind hearted. He commanded respect without fear. He measured his words and meant what he said. He gave me an example that is hard to live up to.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I do not disagree that there has been a feminization of men in America, and the church has not been immune to this. It is judgment on the church when men abdicate their God-ordained role (Judges 4:9). That said, true manhood comes from internal character; character that has been molded by the Spirit. There are times when being a man requires being direct or even blunt. It sometimes requires confrontation of wrong doing. Conversely being a man sometimes is proven through compassion and kindness. I had the honor of watching my maternal grandfather show me what being a man was all about. He was a big strapping Italian with hands the size of tennis rackets. He exuded intimidation by his physical presence. He was firm, yet kind hearted. He commanded respect without fear. He measured his words and meant what he said. He gave me an example that is hard to live up to.

Sounds to me like you have this covered....I don't quite recognize how grampa's status as an (Italian) is more signifigant than mine as a (Norwegian)...but, perhaps you only mentioned it as an ancillary fact. Anyway...this Italian Grampa of yours sounds like a man that I'd be proud to know. :thumbs: He sounds like a real "Man"...and someone who taught you well :thumbsup:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

John of Japan LITERALLY ARGUED that Jesus was NEVER harsh- neither was Paul he said!!!

Seriously??
Please tell me that the inestimable (I do admire him in many ways) JoJ...did NOT actually say anything like this, perhaps you misunderstood him?

What did he say to the woman in Mark chapter 8 about how one doesn't feed to "dogs" that which belongs to "children"...Jesus was never "harsh"?? Gimme a break.
The woman's response was PURE GOLD BTW...:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Luke2427]

I do not disagree that there has been a feminization of men in America, and the church has not been immune to this. It is judgment on the church when men abdicate their God-ordained role (Judges 4:9). That said, true manhood comes from internal character; character that has been molded by the Spirit. There are times when being a man requires being direct or even blunt. It sometimes requires confrontation of wrong doing. Conversely being a man sometimes is proven through compassion and kindness. I had the honor of watching my maternal grandfather show me what being a man was all about. He was a big strapping Italian with hands the size of tennis rackets. He exuded intimidation by his physical presence. He was firm, yet kind hearted. He commanded respect without fear. He measured his words and meant what he said. He gave me an example that is hard to live up to.

Yes, I think this is excellent.

I agree.

Manliness is best seen in strength. That is what God gave us more of than he gave to women.

Tenderness is what God gave more of to women than he did to men.

But a good woman will be appropriately strong and a good man will be appropriately tender.

The problem today, as you noted, is that society and some on baptistboard seem to want to make men NO STRONGER than women and JUST AS TENDER.

This turns men with half a brain off. They know better and they do not wish to go to church and have their advantages and distinctives stripped away. And I don't blame them because God doesn't want that either.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Luke, I have read through all of this thread and I must say you talk out of both sides of your mouth. You really seem confused.

In my life I have noticed that those you men, the stallions as you said earlier, are almost universally loud mouth, arrogant bullies who when push comes to shove are not to be found.

I have found the real "stallions" often to be quiet, gentle men who have steel under the surface and do not have to let it show to impress others. I remember loud mouth GIs when I was in the army. They were not the tough fellows. In turn, I never met a loud mouth Green Beret. Those I met were always respectful, quiet talking and interesting. Interestingly the loud mouth fellows never challenged the Green Beret's. We all knew who to trust when push came to shove.

The same has been true through the rest of my life. If I want tough, dedicated, trustful men I do not go out looking for the beer drinking, loud mouth fellows. I look for the quiet, built of steel men. They are in all churches if you just but look below the surface. I want dedication, not bluster.

Come to the little church I attend and I will introduce you to some very gentle, quiet, tough men.

Blessings.

 

[InTheLight]

I did not claim that these men ADMIRE Osteen's ministry. I said some of them have apparently adopted the STYLE of it because they repudiate aggressiveness and call for nothing but unrelenting gentleness all of the time.

You are correct--you did not say ADMIRE, you said EMBRACE Osteen's style.

I have pointed this out ad nauseum so it is not a claim without a warrant. You have seen where I confront people for this idea that gentleness is a universal rule for all Christians all of the time. You have seen me confront them so why do you call them straw men?

I have not seen you confront them on gentleness as a universal rule for Christians, so perhaps I was misplacing my strawman allegation. If so, I apologize.

Except that the FACT is that several, several men on here have repeatedly made the claim that I ought to ALWAYS be gentle. That is a FACT. It is the FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLE of Joel Osteen's ministry. He AVOIDS controversy like the plague and he utterly detests the thought of ever being blunt, harsh and frank.

OK, let's say there are several on this board that advocate universal gentleness. That's a far cry from your OP where it was stated "40% of the guys in churches are chicks". Using Osteen as an example of sissified-ness and then claiming posters on BB embrace his style is guilt by association.

 

[Aaron]

"The stallions hang out in bars; the geldings hang out in church." David Murrow.

Mark Driscol said the church has produced "a bunch of nice, soft, tender, chickified church boys. … Sixty percent of Christians are chicks," he explains, "and the forty percent that are dudes are still sort of chicks."

I think this is true as unpleasant as it may make men who are "chickified" themselves feel.

I grew up in a rough crowd.

Most of the men I grew up with would find this Joel Osteen type ministry to be repulsive. And not just the substance of it, but the STYLE of it. I know most of you would be against the substance but some of you seem to embrace the style.

Men who pull wire, hang sheet rock, roof houses, plow fields, ride horses, lay pipe, hang shingles, pave roads, come home to Monday Night Football and a few beers, rent a UFC pay-per-view every once in a while, etc... tend to find Christian men who mince words and speak sweetly to be effeminate.

I have had the greatest success looking them in the eye and telling them, "Look man- you walk on God's earth, you breath his air. It is wickedness for you to refuse to serve him."

You'll reach them by being REAL a whole lot better than by being "sweet".

We wonder why our churches are full of mostly women- it is the utter repudiation of manliness like that that so many do on this very board often.

Two words to characterize this post.

Bull Sh--.

You need to read a little on Richard Wurmbrand and the thousands suffering everyday for the name of Christ, who eschew your worldly view of manhood, and see if you could handle a tenth of the persecution.

Wuss.

You sound like a Calvinist, but you smell like an Arminian.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Two words to characterize this post.

Bull Sh--.

You need to read a little on Richard Wurmbrand and the thousands suffering everyday for the name of Christ, who eschew your worldly view of manhood, and see if you could handle a tenth of the persecution.

Wuss.

You sound like a Calvinist, but you smell like an Arminian.

You almost nailed it!!!! Not quite though..... the Calvinist has NO interest in the human prospective, human ability etc.... It is all of God! What we see here is an attempt at disassociation with the faith..... any wonder why the Armianians are applauding, and the aroma ( like cheap cologne), is nauseating!

 

[quantumfaith]

I've seen REAL MEN:
cry
change diapers
sing high tenor
talk respectfully to others
defer to their wives in silence

and one more:
I've seen REAL MEN debate on BB without swaggering throughout the forum like a bull in a china shop, arrogantly condemning everyone who dares disagree with their theology. These are the men who know how to debate in LOVE.

Jesus was a real man. He cried. He liked kids. He spent time talking to women. But the "manliest man" attribute I can see in Jesus Christ was that He showed LOVE. When men truly love God and others, being a manly man will soon follow.

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[Arbo]

I've seen REAL MEN:
cry
change diapers
sing high tenor
talk respectfully to others
defer to their wives in silence

and one more:
I've seen REAL MEN debate on BB without swaggering throughout the forum like a bull in a china shop, arrogantly condemning everyone who dares disagree with their theology. These are the men who know how to debate in LOVE.

Jesus was a real man. He cried. He liked kids. He spent time talking to women. But the "manliest man" attribute I can see in Jesus Christ was that He showed LOVE. When men truly love God and others, being a manly man will soon follow.

:thumbs: Second that.

 

[abcgrad94]

This is the problem. You don't even know what being a man MEANS. You define it as being womanly or at least as doing the same things women excel in.

Thank you for insulting my intelligence. This type of reply is why I rarely debate with you.

Sorry Luke, but arrogance, bull-headedness, and pushiness are not attributes of a manly man. They are attributes of a fool.

 

[Luke2427]

You are correct--you did not say ADMIRE, you said EMBRACE Osteen's style.

You seem incapable of representing someone with whom you debate honestly.

I said "...embrace Osteen's style..."

You represented that as "... Admire Osteens ministry..."

Those are TOTALLY different things.

I said the DEAD LEVEL OPPOSITE when I said that these guys would NOT embrace his SUBSTANCE. That has a lot to do with his MINISTRY. Hello?

It is not good to misrepresent the person's argument whom you debate.

I have not seen you confront them on gentleness as a universal rule for Christians, so perhaps I was misplacing my strawman allegation. If so, I apologize.

I have though and it is relatively common knowledge. It is truly not a strawman.

OK, let's say there are several on this board that advocate universal gentleness. That's a far cry from your OP where it was stated "40% of the guys in churches are chicks". Using Osteen as an example of sissified-ness and then claiming posters on BB embrace his style is guilt by association.

That's not even close. Please try harder to do what I admonish you to do at the beginning of this post.

 

[Luke2427]

Thank you for insulting my intelligence. This type of reply is why I rarely debate with you.

Sorry Luke, but arrogance, bull-headedness, and pushiness are not attributes of a manly man. They are attributes of a fool.

This post is the epitome of bull-headedness.

It is insulting and ugly and everything you CLAIM to repudiate in me.

It is hypocritical in the highest degree.

And THAT is why you don't debate me. I don't let this kind of crud go unchecked.

And you hate it.

That's why. Be honest.

 

[Luke2427]

Two words to characterize this post.

Bull Sh--.

You need to read a little on Richard Wurmbrand and the thousands suffering everyday for the name of Christ, who eschew your worldly view of manhood, and see if you could handle a tenth of the persecution.

Wuss.

You sound like a Calvinist, but you smell like an Arminian.

How is my view worldly?

How is anything I said contradictory to Richard Wurmbrand's work?

You see any coward can pop in like you do here and make a claim without a warrant and flee for the hills.

It takes character to make a claim like this and support it and stick around and see if your claim can be demolished by the person you debate.


It can by the way. You don't know what you are talking about and it is patently obvious.

 

[Monster]

While I despise feeding the trolls;

Luke and heiro are playing games. It seems as if they are enjoying stirring the pot and causing dissension.

They talk about men and being manly. But they're simply little boys playing with power tools that they either don't understand or are purposefully choosing to use them to mislead and once again, cause dissension.

What a waste of intelligence and a sad pretense of manliness.