Are you producing False Converts?

[quantumfaith]

Deep and Wide by Andy Stanley


Creating Churches Unchurched People Love to Attend

Is there a oxymoron here? Why create a church that sinners love to attend? Does he not realize that sinners need to REPENT and get saved?

Have the book, read the book, love the book. Love the fact that we have made it our mission to create churches that unchurched people want to attend. We routinely witness life change happen in individuals and our baptismal pool in use. "Thank you God".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; Shakespeare Henry V, Act III--An all time favorite

Only by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit can eternal life be brought to the dead sinner (John 3 : 6-8).The gospel brings life and immortality to light, but doesn't produce life (2 Tim.1: 10).

 

[InTheLight]

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more; Shakespeare Henry V, Act III--An all time favorite

Only by the direct operation of the Holy Spirit can eternal life be brought to the dead sinner (John 3 : 6-8).The gospel brings life and immortality to light, but doesn't produce life (2 Tim.1: 10).

Romans 1:16 NIV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Romans 1:16 NIV
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Exactly...1st comes belief & no one should be ashamed of the gospel, it teaches you much. Proves grace from the HS is active. Now what happens to the infant that dies before hearing the gospel?

 

[InTheLight]

Now what happens to the infant that dies before hearing the gospel?

Can't be sure, but I sure hope God has mercy on that child and he goes to Heaven.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Can't be sure, but I sure hope God has mercy on that child and he goes to Heaven.

Lets talk about about someone else, say my sister who was Cerebral Palsy all her life & she could not mentally process the Gospel. Do you rely on Gods mercy too?

Or how about the guy on a desert island who has never come in contact with the Gospel.....is he SOL or does he also get a pass? Im not trying to be a wise guy (sometimes I do though) but here I am dead serious. I had a long time to think about this & review scriptures having lost a child in its infancy & having a innocent sister who I loved deeply & she passed away.

These are matters of the soul we are rummaging through & I was never into this ..... I was a non believer. So when this death happened to my son, I cried out to a Orthodox Presbyterian Minister & a Reformed Minister only to be told there were two possible scenarios theologically. 1-The Child is in hell (& my wife/girlfriend at the time, put him there---we are evil sinful people ya know) or (2) Your statement.... well we cant know for certain but we hope that God would be merciful.

Ah sigh......Well thats not good enough ITL, not good enough at all. If your stance is, Gospel Regeneration ---prerequisite to the Grace of the Holy Spirit to provide salvation, Im not going to agree. The Lord provides, who He will, regeneration from His saving grace & the gospel is there to learn the way of the lord & how to be obedient, to instruct & to glorify. Thats my beliefs & its based on what I see in scripture. Furthermore, that interpretation is fair to those who are prohibited (through no fault of their own) access to a normal life which provides a chance to hear & recognize scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

Can't be sure, but I sure hope God has mercy on that child and he goes to Heaven.

May I suggest a more plausble answer? Is not the standard of judgement on the day of judgement spelled out in Romans 2:6 to be "according to" ones PERSONAL works performed in their own body? Since infants dying in the womb and outside the womb are without the capablity to discern between right and wrong and those who have died within the womb have not performed any works in their own body how can they be judged "according to their works" done in their own body?

I believe just as they were condemned to death by one man's act (Adam) without personal individual choice they are redeemed by one man's obedience (Christ) without personal individual choice. Where sin abounded grace did much more abound. Jesus removed "the sin" of the world in regard to its eternal penalty (not its temporal - death) while the eternal penalty is determined "according to your works" done in your body.

So no human goes to hell due to the sin of Adam but for their own sins.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

May I suggest a more plausble answer? Is not the standard of judgement on the day of judgement spelled out in Romans 2:6 to be "according to" ones PERSONAL works performed in their own body? Since infants dying in the womb and outside the womb are without the capablity to discern between right and wrong and those who have died within the womb have not performed any works in their own body how can they be judged "according to their works" done in their own body?

I believe just as they were condemned to death by one man's act (Adam) without personal individual choice they are redeemed by one man's obedience (Christ) without personal individual choice. Where sin abounded grace did much more abound. Jesus removed "the sin" of the world in regard to its eternal penalty (not its temporal - death) while the eternal penalty is determined "according to your works" done in your body.

So no human goes to hell due to the sin of Adam but for their own sins.

Heck.....Mark, I tell you this in all sincerity. At one stage of a very heated discussion, three Pastors--1 Reformed & 2 OPC (all with advanced degrees) could not tell me what you just did. Rather, they gave me the answers I provided earlier.

LOL & somehow I am to trust this errrrr ahhhh Profession with the spiritual welfare of my beautiful wife & family.

And pay them on top of it.....

 

[The Biblicist]

Heck.....Mark, I tell you this in all sincerity. At one stage of a very heated discussion, three Pastors--1 Reformed & 2 OPC (all with advanced degrees) could not tell me what you just did. Rather, they gave me the answers I provided earlier.

LOL & somehow I am to trust this errrrr ahhhh Profession with the spiritual welfare of my beautiful wife & family.

And pay them on top of it.....

Well, glad I could be of service:godisgood:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, glad I could be of service:godisgood:

Yea, someone has to do the Lords work. God bless & good night.

 

[evangelist6589]

After years of debates on BB, as well as other research, I understand Calvinism fairly well.



That's rich considering you posted a thread about false converts, essentially saying God can't/doesn't/won't save people via a certain method of witnessing.

I never said that. I said most likely they will be a false convert but only God knows. The Way of the Master or using the law to the proud and the gospel to the humble is the Bible way and most of the time will produce a true convert.

Read this parable

http://workmenforchrist.org/Beliefs/Witnessing/TwoMenParachute.html

 

[evangelist6589]

Have the book, read the book, love the book. Love the fact that we have made it our mission to create churches that unchurched people want to attend. We routinely witness life change happen in individuals and our baptismal pool in use. "Thank you God".

Why do you not believe in the sufficiency of the scripture and preaching on sin? Do you not believe in Acts in the passage that says that God added to their number daily? Why do you want to make a sinner comfortable in his/her sin? Will a sinner go to Heaven when they die if he/she is comfortable in sin?

It always amazes me the level of Pragmatism that some use and methods that they borrow from the world. Such types will in a heartbeat frown upon what I do, and what Ray Comfort and THOUSANDS of other evangelist do everyweek as we hit the streets. Few of us can boast about bringing in lots of disciples, but we can boast about being faithful to preach the word of God.

A book that every pastor NEEDS TO READ read.

God has a Wonderful Plan for your Life

 

[Revmitchell]

I am wondering of those who are worried about whether or not someone else is "producing" false converts how many converts have they "produced" this year alone and how is your discipleship of them going?

 

[evangelist6589]

I am wondering of those who are worried about whether or not someone else is "producing" false converts how many converts have they "produced" this year alone and how is your discipleship of them going?

God brings the converts and all He expects me to do is plant seeds and he will reap up the Harvest.

 

[saturneptune]

Why is there a total lack of common sense in theology when required? It is essential in everyday life? A person who never hears the Gospel, infants, the mentally ill will be taken care of by a merciful Lord. That is not the case here, is it? You have heard the Gospel. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It says faith, not salvation. How many years of seminary is devoted to common sense?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why is there a total lack of common sense in theology when required? It is essential in everyday life? A person who never hears the Gospel, infants, the mentally ill will be taken care of by a merciful Lord. That is not the case here, is it? You have heard the Gospel. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. It says faith, not salvation. How many years of seminary is devoted to common sense?

So to clarify...your saying you have to have faith to be regenerated? Isn't that what the Arminians claim?

 

[The Biblicist]

A person who never hears the Gospel......will be taken care of by a merciful Lord.

If ignorance of the gospel secures salvation then let us all keep the gospel a secret so that all can be saved. Mere violation of our own conscience is sufficient to condemn us to hell justly much less violation of the revealed written law of God. We do not need to reject the gospel to be condemned justly to hell. However, we do need to hear and obey the gospel to be saved from hell.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If ignorance of the gospel secures salvation then let us all keep the gospel a secret so that all can be saved. Mere violation of our own conscience is sufficient to condemn us to hell justly much less violation of the revealed written law of God. We do not need to reject the gospel to be condemned justly to hell. However, we do need to hear and obey the gospel to be saved from hell.[/QUOTE]

Providing we have lived long enough to hear it & understand it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jesus said "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (John 6:44)

 

[The Biblicist]

:thumbs:

If ignorance of the gospel secures salvation then let us all keep the gospel a secret so that all can be saved. Mere violation of our own conscience is sufficient to condemn us to hell justly much less violation of the revealed written law of God. We do not need to reject the gospel to be condemned justly to hell. However, we do need to hear and obey the gospel to be saved from hell.[/QUOTE]

Providing we have lived long enough to hear it & understand it.

:thumbsup::thumbsup: