Are you producing False Converts?

[salzer mtn]

Suggesting that we are not told to win souls. Can't be more anti-evangelism than that.

When I was first saved years ago I started going to a church that said they were a bible believing soul winning church. We would go out soul winning on Tuesday evenings and knock on peoples doors. I would usually go with the pastor and he would do all the soul winning which consisted of him leading the would be convert down the Romans road. They would promise to come to church which they very seldom did. This pastor was also an evangelist and at the end of the services he would prolong the altar call invitation working the crowd, pier pressuring young kids down to the altar and then talking them all up, Roman road style. His theme song which the congregation sang was " I want to be a soul winner for jesus" On Sunday morning during Sunday school someone would come around to each class and get the tally of all the contacts the members had made with lost people during the week and the total contacts were put on the board for all to see and the pastor would give a lecture on how this was pleasing to God. It kinda sent a message that without man, Christ could do nothing. Revmitchell is this your idea of soul winning ?

 

[quantumfaith]

I am by no mean calvinst, but I understand and agree with the sentiment of Agedman. WE do not WIN souls ( I do understand this to be a "figure of christian speak). It is God who ultimately wins souls, not us, our role is to be salt and light, to strive to demonstrate the fruit of spirit in our lives, to ready and prepared to give an account of the joy that resides in us, to explain, to discus and apologetically persuade others to consider the message of the gospel. We are to plant seeds, others to nurture, God grants the increase.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well when you start nitpicking over insignificant phrases then communications is always going to be unnecessarily difficult. But Paul disagrees with you.

1Co 9:18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

 

[InTheLight]

http://www.wayofthemasterminute.com

You know its amazing how many these days do not preach the LAW as they preach only grace and as a result have produced lots of false converts.

You know it's amazing how many times Calvinists post threads about the multitude of false converts that are being produced because the gospel is not being presented according to their particular formula.

They post it as if it were a matter of fact and not a matter of begging the question.

They post it as if God is not mighty to save.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You know it's amazing how many times Calvinists post threads about the multitude of false converts that are being produced because the gospel is not being presented according to their particular formula.

They post it as if it were a matter of fact and not a matter of begging the question.

They post it as if God is not mighty to save.

Then they are probably false "Calvinists" if you must use that terminology. On this very site I have seen people criticize the Church of Christ followers as being "Baptism Regenerationists" right! So do we criticize people for being "Gospel Regenerationists"?

 

[InTheLight]

Then they are probably false "Calvinists" if you must use that terminology. On this very site I have seen people criticize the Church of Christ followers as being "Baptism Regenerationists" right! So do we criticize people for being "Gospel Regenerationists"?

Allow me to rephrase:

You know it's amazing how many times people post threads about the multitude of false converts that are being produced because the gospel is not being presented according to their particular formula.

They post it as if it were a matter of fact and not a matter of begging the question.

They post it as if God is not mighty to save.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am by no mean calvinst, but I understand and agree with the sentiment of Agedman. WE do not WIN souls ( I do understand this to be a "figure of christian speak). It is God who ultimately wins souls, not us, our role is to be salt and light, to strive to demonstrate the fruit of spirit in our lives, to ready and prepared to give an account of the joy that resides in us, to explain, to discus and apologetically persuade others to consider the message of the gospel. We are to plant seeds, others to nurture, God grants the increase.

AMEN!!!:thumbs:

 

[quantumfaith]

You know it's amazing how many times Calvinists post threads about the multitude of false converts that are being produced because the gospel is not being presented according to their particular formula.

They post it as if it were a matter of fact and not a matter of begging the question.

They post it as if God is not mighty to save.

ITL, I think I understand you, but I don't think it is simply calvinists that do this. It (seems to me) it can come from anyone who thinks that some approach to ministry and communication of the Gospel, different from their own, is by necessity flawed, incorrect etc. It is often outside of our ability to determine is someone is a "false convert", sure, we can make observations and speculate, but in reality it comes down to that person and God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Allow me to rephrase:

You know it's amazing how many times people post threads about the multitude of false converts that are being produced because the gospel is not being presented according to their particular formula.

They post it as if it were a matter of fact and not a matter of begging the question.

They post it as if God is not mighty to save.

And again, no true calvinist will tell you that & think about why for a moment. Total depravity.....you are dead in your sins & spiritually dead right! Therefore its the HS job to regenerate you. Then you pick up on the gospel.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

ITL, I think I understand you, but I don't think it is simply calvinists that do this. It (seems to me) it can come from anyone who thinks that some approach to ministry and communication of the Gospel, different from their own, is by necessity flawed, incorrect etc. It is often outside of our ability to determine is someone is a "false convert", sure, we can make observations and speculate, but in reality it comes down to that person and God.

OK.....if you believe in Baptismal Regeneration, are you a false convert?

 

[quantumfaith]

OK.....if you believe in Baptismal Regeneration, are you a false convert?

I would say "baptismal regeneration" as the sole marker for an eternal relationship with God is incorrect. If one "believes" it, does it make them a false convert, I think not, not necessarily.

 

[evangelist6589]

You know it's amazing how many times Calvinists post threads about the multitude of false converts that are being produced because the gospel is not being presented according to their particular formula.

They post it as if it were a matter of fact and not a matter of begging the question.

They post it as if God is not mighty to save.

I am not saying that the LAW is the only way for people to get saved because I was saved by the Romans Road method and more importantly by God Himself. I do sometimes use non Calvinist gospel tracts such as Chic Tracts, Fellowship Tract League, Mark Cahill, etc.. However I do realize that most of these tracts do nothing but produce false converts in that they lead one to say a prayer and have no confession nor repentance from sin. Those whom say the prayer are no different than they were 5 minutes earlier and therefore a false convert. Its not about Calvinism its about being Biblical! Sure God will sometimes use Chic Tracts to lead someone to faith and I dont deny that. However MOST of their tracts are fire and Brimstone and may produce fear filled converts rather than legit converts, but only God knows for only He will call HIS elect to salvation and I stated that plainly saturday when I was open air preaching. The elect would respond and they would hear my voice or that of another for the HS would convict them of sin.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I would say "baptismal regeneration" as the sole marker for an eternal relationship with God is incorrect. If one "believes" it, does it make them a false convert, I think not, not necessarily.

I agree but I would also claim them "Mistaken" in their biblical interpretations. I would go much further with Roman Catholics, Episcopals, United Methodists....ah, LDS are just heretics. But thats just my opinion & we all know what opinions are like. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[quantumfaith]

I agree but I would also claim them "Mistaken" in their biblical interpretations. I would go much further with Roman Catholics, Episcopals, United Methodists....ah, LDS are just heretics. But thats just my opinion & we all know what opinions are like. :smilewinkgrin:

This is why we have protestants and Catholics, and then under protestants a MYRIAD of denominational identities.

 

[evangelist6589]

ITL, I think I understand you, but I don't think it is simply calvinists that do this. It (seems to me) it can come from anyone who thinks that some approach to ministry and communication of the Gospel, different from their own, is by necessity flawed, incorrect etc. It is often outside of our ability to determine is someone is a "false convert", sure, we can make observations and speculate, but in reality it comes down to that person and God.

Yes but one cant say that the multitude in Joel Osteen and Andy Stanley type churches are truly saved because the message being preached there is "easy-believism" and a distortion of the true gospel. Also self-help and a sinner friendly message is the central focus in such churches. Do people truly repent in those churches?

 

[evangelist6589]

And again, no true calvinist will tell you that & think about why for a moment. Total depravity.....you are dead in your sins & spiritually dead right! Therefore its the HS job to regenerate you. Then you pick up on the gospel.

Exactly! Thats what I preached saturday.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes but one cant say that the multitude in Joel Osteen and Andy Stanley type churches are truly saved because the message being preached there is "easy-believism" and a distortion of the true gospel. Also self-help and a sinner friendly message is the central focus in such churches. Do people truly repent in those churches?

That is YOUR opinion. I won't comment much about Olsteen, don't know much about him. You are certainly entitled to your Opinion about Stanley.

 

[evangelist6589]

OK.....if you believe in Baptismal Regeneration, are you a false convert?

I once had a debate with a cultist whom believed one was saved by being baptized. I told him plainly he needed to get saved.

 

[evangelist6589]

That is YOUR opinion. I won't comment much about Olsteen, don't know much about him. You are certainly entitled to your Opinion about Stanley.

Deep and Wide by Andy Stanley


Creating Churches Unchurched People Love to Attend

Is there a oxymoron here? Why create a church that sinners love to attend? Does he not realize that sinners need to REPENT and get saved?

 

[Mexdeaf]

I refuse to judge another man's salvation. I will, however, judge his fruit.