Arguments for a Post Trib. Rap.

[stilllearning]

Hello again Darrenss1

It has been said, that this is “off topic”, but things concerning Jesus, are important enough to chase a rabbit, a while.

You said........

“Its clear to me that Jesus could move around as a spirit, not like any normal spirit of a dead man stuck in Abraham's Bosom. “

After Jesus’ death, he was in “the heart of the earth”, just like any other person there.
He did not have any special privileges(with the exception of who He was), and he was not released from the grave, until the three days were up.

This is an important fact to understand, about our Lord’s “payment” for our sin.

 

[Darrenss1]

Hello again Darrenss1

It has been said, that this is “off topic”, but things concerning Jesus, are important enough to chase a rabbit, a while.

You said........

After Jesus’ death, he was in “the heart of the earth”, just like any other person there.
He did not have any special privileges(with the exception of who He was), and he was not released from the grave, until the three days were up.

This is an important fact to understand, about our Lord’s “payment” for our sin.

You are right it is off topic. Can you point to any scriptures to clarify that Jesus's spirit was the same as any spirit of a man?

For the life of me I can't see why this passage really contradicts anything I've said? I think you are making too much of it personally.

Matt 12
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

How does what Jesus did and where He was while He was a spirit in the 3 days between the crucifixion and the resurrection effect the "payment" of sin? You lost me on that one... Jesus said the above as a sign for those seeking a sign, I don't think it has any deep meaning other than what He says.

Darren

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him

In my post#30 I presented an excerpt from John Walvoors’s writings to illustrate the following statement in that same post:


I was simply quoting Walvoord to show the validity of the above statement by me.

Walvoor is quite often quoted by Calvinist in support of their doctrine,

I used the opportunity to point out one of the mistakes in his writing.

I know you're not the only one who read these post, so my answers are not "for your eyes only". :laugh: :laugh:

There are only two resurrections in the Bible. the first was that of Jesus Christ. The second will be the general resurrection at the end of time as we know it consistent with John 5:28, 29.

I agree, If Walvoor was going to included "all" resurrections, he should have started in the OT, before Jesus came.

 

[Palatka51]

As a historical premillenialist I only believe in one second Coming.

I don't see the dispensational, pre-tribulational view through my study of Scripture.

Since this is a (supposed) heretical view for some around here I'll simply state my beliefs above and step away.

Amen. Only one second coming recorded with only one resurrection of the Saints. The second resurrection is of Death, Hell and the Grave for the Great White Throne and eternal judgment. No record of resurrection/rapture of 144,000 and their converts after wrath has been poured out. And sense scripture tells us that "Flesh and Blood shall not inherit the kingdom of Heaven" what will be their fate if they are not resurrected/raptured?

Now my reply to the OP.

Besides the above evidence, where does scripture say that the 144,000 preach the gospel to the world during the outpouring of the Wrath of God? The only evidence of the gospel being preached is God placing an angel in the air to preach the gospel during this period of wrath, yet no one repents.

Revelation14:6&7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Revelation 16:8-11
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

There is no scripture that unequivocally states that the Church will be taken out before any tribulation or "The Great Tribulation."

 

[canadyjd]

Hello canadyjd
Well the exact Scripture, that you are quoting is........
Matthew 24:30-31
V.30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
V.31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--------------------------------------------------
I see this passage, clearly supporting my position:

The whole of chap. 24 of Matt. deals with the coming Day of the Lord.... that is the day Jesus returns.

Christians are clearly going to go through the tribulation, according to Jesus.

v.9 "Then, they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you shall be hated by all nations on account of My name. (v.10) and at that time, many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another."

v.13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved." (v.14) "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all nations, and then the end shall come."

v. 29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days.......(v.30) the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the sky......and they shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds......And He will send forth His angels...and they will gather together His elect....."

How can Jesus' comments that "immediately after the tribulation of those days", He "shall return" and His "elect" "shall be gathered", support a pre-trib. rapture?

As far as the "thief in the night" analogy, the point is not that it is a secret... the point is that His return is unexpected.... people are complacent, they believe they are safe, they don't expect Him to return.

peace to youraying:

 

[Me4Him]

The whole of chap. 24 of Matt. deals with the coming Day of the Lord.... that is the day Jesus returns.

True, and the details of it are throughout the OT, but there was no mention of a "Rapture" in the OT.

Christians are clearly going to go through the tribulation, according to Jesus.

How can Jesus' comments that "immediately after the tribulation of those days", He "shall return" and His "elect" "shall be gathered", support a pre-trib. rapture?

How can the second coming be the same as the Rapture, yet one is known/recorded in the OT,

the other still a "MYSTERY" not revealed until later by Paul???

As far as the "thief in the night" analogy, the point is not that it is a secret... the point is that His return is unexpected.... people are complacent, they believe they are safe, they don't expect Him to return.

peace to youraying:

The second coming is preceded by "Earth staggering like a drunk, moved out of her place, men scorch with great heat, Earthquakes, Island/mountains disappearing, Sun/Moon not shining, dead from one end of the earth to the other end, blood up to the horses bridles,

with only Jesus returning to stop "ALL FLESH" from being destroyed,

I don't think the "Second coming" is going to "Sneak up on people"???

With the "Parable of the Fig tree", Jesus backs up in time and starts describing the "Rapture", and event separate from the second coming and one still a mystery to his audience

and, no doubt, like you, they too "Assumed" it was the same event as the second coming.

Mt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The second coming is the "end of the world", the Rapture is not.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, (Tares)

In the rapture, Jesus "sever" the Righteous from among the wicked.

I can't emphasize this too much, pay attentions to the "DETAILS".

 

[Palatka51]

The whole of chap. 24 of Matt. deals with the coming Day of the Lord.... that is the day Jesus returns.

True, and the details of it are throughout the OT, but there was no mention of a "Rapture" in the OT.

Nowhere in scripture is rapture mentioned. However a catching up or meeting in the sky or Heaven is. As such there is clear evidence of the same in OT scripture as well.

2 Samuel 12:21-23
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[webdog]

Nowhere in scripture is rapture mentioned.

This really is no argument, as there is no mention of "Trinity" in the Bible either. Both concepts are still true, though.

There is no scripture that unequivocally states that the Church will be taken out before any tribulation or "The Great Tribulation."

Then what is the purpose? If those in Christ have already suffered the wrath of God in His Son...what further wrath is there for those in Christ? Anything other than a pre-trib rapture (catching up, meeting in the sky, etc.) defies any theological logic pertaining to the entire point of Christs suffering.

Besides the above evidence, where does scripture say that the 144,000 preach the gospel to the world during the outpouring of the Wrath of God?

How do you define prophecy?

 

[Palatka51]

If those in Christ have already suffered the wrath of God in His Son...what further wrath is there for those in Christ? Anything other than a pre-trib rapture (catching up, meeting in the sky, etc.) defies any theological logic pertaining to the entire point of Christs suffering.

Tribulation or The Great Tribulation is not the Wrath of God. The Bible plainly states that we will have tribulations, yet we are not subjects of wrath. Therefore the two are separate and have no relationship with each other. Other than Wrath follows Tribulation after the saints are removed.

Besides the above evidence, where does scripture say that the 144,000 preach the gospel to the world during the outpouring of the Wrath of God?

How do you define prophecy?

webdog, Your question does not relate to the one I asked. There is no scripture stating that these folks are preaching the gospel during the outpouring of God's wrath or even during the tribulation of the saints.

Revelation 7
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Note that verse 3 is quite clear that the angels stand ready to pour out the Wrath of God are commanded to wait until these are sealed. It is quite clear that these are witnessed to by the Church during tribulation. After this, wrath is released and no body is repenting but are blaspheming God. (Referring all to my previous reply to this thread).

It is so plain to see that this chapter has separated the Great Tribulation from the Wrath of God.

 

[webdog]

Tribulation or The Great Tribulation is not the Wrath of God.

Really?!? Have you read Revelation? :laugh:

The Bible plainly states that we will have tribulations, yet we are not subjects of wrath. Therefore the two are separate and have no relationship with each other. Other than Wrath follows Tribulation after the saints are removed.

The Great Tribulation is much different than the tribulations a believer suffers at the hands of the world. The Great Tribulation is God's judgement against an unbelieving world, not the worlds judgement on believers. The GT IS God's wrath.

webdog, Your question does not relate to the one I asked. There is no scripture stating that these folks are preaching the gospel during the outpouring of God's wrath or even during the tribulation of the saints.

It does relate. You have stated the 144k do not preach the gospel. Scripture states the 144k prophecy. How do you believe prophecy is defined in this context? Simple question...

Note that verse 3 is quite clear that the angels stand ready to pour out the Wrath of God are commanded to wait until these are sealed. It is quite clear that these are witnessed to by the Church during tribulation.

Now you are reading into the text that which is not there. The 144k are sealed, yes...but there is NO mention of them being "witnessed to by the church". You are allowing your eschatology to dictate Bible, not vice versa. There is no mention of the church after chapter 3. The 12k from each tribe are picked by God as servants. What for if the church is still here? As long as the church is on earth, the great commission is in effect...what special duties will the 144k be doing that the church is not equipped already for? Again, makes no sense.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Darrenss1

You said.........

“How does what Jesus did and where He was while He was a spirit in the 3 days between the crucifixion and the resurrection effect the "payment" of sin? You lost me on that one... Jesus said the above as a sign for those seeking a sign, I don't think it has any deep meaning other than what He says.”

And you also said.......

“For the life of me I can't see why this passage really contradicts anything I've said?”

Well what is being said by some here, is that Jesus went to heaven immediately after his burial, because of what he said to the thief, about going to paradise.

Now paradise, doesn’t sound much like hell(the grave), to us, therefore some conclude that the other scriptures, that tell us that he spent 3 days in the grave, after his crucifixion, must be a mistake;
(This is the contradiction that I was talking about
But as I have said, that Bible has NO mistakes nor ANY contradictions.

Therefore, our idea of “paradise”, must be more than what we think it is.
--------------------------------------------------
Now for why, this question is so important:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
V.1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
V.2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
V.3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
V.4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

This is the Gospel; The only message, powerful enough to change people’s lives.
(We shouldn’t mess with any part of this message!)

When this message says, “that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures”, it means that this fact, is important.
He was 3 days and 3 nights(72 hours), in the paradise side of hell(the heart of the earth),

If we start messing around with this fact, we are messing with the Gospel.
(This is why each year, I make a such big deal out of “good Friday”, actually being “good Wednesday”.)
--------------------------------------------------
There are many other Biblical reasons, that I can think of, that the 3 days are important, but the fact that it is in the Gospel message, is enough.

Just because we can’t understand the fact that Jesus spent 3 days in hell, doesn’t make it not so.

 

[Palatka51]

Really?!? Have you read Revelation? :laugh:

OK, That was uncalled for. If you are going to discredit my posts after I have gave clear scripture for what I believe by laughing, then brother you need a lessen in teaching and exhortation. Because frankly I'm not feeling it here. Besides, If I were at all persuaded by your post (which have not included scripture BTW and as such I am not) this condescending attitude would never edify what you are trying to teach.raying:

The GT IS God's wrath.

Really?!? Have you read Revelation or the Bible or are you making it say what it is not?? If so, I want chapter and verse that tells me so...

You have stated the 144k do not preach the gospel. Scripture states the 144k prophecy. How do you believe prophecy is defined in this context? Simple question...

Again, your question is not related to my previous post. That post was in response to another post that suggested the 144k will be witnessing to the rest of the world and winning souls after the Church is removed. I said nothing about them prophesying and am not denying that they are prophesying.

Show me where, by scripture, I am wrong. You can't so you must condescend.

 

[webdog]

OK, That was uncalled for. If you are going to discredit my posts after I have gave clear scripture for what I believe by laughing, then brother you need a lessen in teaching and exhortation. Because frankly I'm not feeling it here. Besides, If I were at all persuaded by your post (which have not included scripture BTW and as such I am not) this condescending attitude would never edify what you are trying to teach.raying:

It was meant as a joke, no offense or condensation intended.

Really?!? Have you read Revelation or the Bible or are you making it say what it is not?? If so, I want chapter and verse that tells me so...

Now you do the very thing you accuse me of. Nice. If you need the actual phrases for you to believe something, you are out of luck on many biblical truths. If you do not see God's wrath or judgement in Revelation...I really don't know what else to tell you. We are not on the same page or the same book even.

Again, your question is not related to my previous post. That post was in response to another post that suggested the 144k will be witnessing to the rest of the world and winning souls after the Church is removed. I said nothing about them prophesying and am not denying that they are prophesying.

Good...because Scripture says they are. You can maintain it has nothing to do with your previous post, but I disagree. If you can claim the 144k are NOT preaching the Gospel, you better be prepared to tell us what the 144k are doing (which we are told is prophecying). Why are you avoiding the question? You either know or don't...tell us one way or the other. They are sealed by God...coincidentally Scripture states believers are sealed upon faith in Christ. Why would the church (believers) need to be sealed AGAIN? Were some missed the first time around? Hint: those who were sealed during the church age are no longer around.

Show me where, by scripture, I am wrong. You can't so you must condescend.

Answer my question, and I'll answer yours.

 

[Amy.G]

I have heard that Paradise and hell are or were in the earth with a chasm separating them, and for awhile I thought it made sense, but I really can't find that teaching in scripture.

In fact, Paul speaks of Paradise in this way:

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


From commentaries that I've read, Paradise was another word for heaven, the dwelling place of God, sometimes called the "third heaven". I don't think the bible ever speaks about heaven being in the earth.

The term "heart of the earth" means grave, IMO.

 

[Palatka51]

It was meant as a joke, no offense or condensation intended.

Accepted BTB, condensation is something wet (which without scriptural backing your argument is soaked).

Just kidding!!! I know you meant condescension. BTW, do you need a towel? jk jk

Now you do the very thing you accuse me of. Nice. If you need the actual phrases for you to believe something, you are out of luck on many biblical truths. If you do not see God's wrath or judgement in Revelation...I really don't know what else to tell you. We are not on the same page or the same book even.

No, I did not include a laughing smiley thingy. :tongue3: Sense you were attempting a joke then say so. At that moment as it was it did seem condescending.

Hint: those who were sealed during the church age are no longer around.

Again scripture is sorely lacking. :BangHead:

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Amy.G

You said........

“I have heard that Paradise and hell are or were in the earth with a chasm separating them, and for awhile I thought it made sense, but I really can't find that teaching in scripture.”

Here is the main passage, as mentioned earlier........
Luke 16:19-32
--------------------------------------------------
You also brought up Paul.........

“In fact, Paul speaks of Paradise in this way:
2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.”

This happened to Paul, after the Lord’s resurrection.
--------------------------------------------------
And you are right, the term "heart of the earth" does means grave(the same as the word hell).

 

[Darrenss1]

I have heard that Paradise and hell are or were in the earth with a chasm separating them, and for awhile I thought it made sense, but I really can't find that teaching in scripture.

In fact, Paul speaks of Paradise in this way:

2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.


From commentaries that I've read, Paradise was another word for heaven, the dwelling place of God, sometimes called the "third heaven". I don't think the bible ever speaks about heaven being in the earth.

The term "heart of the earth" means grave, IMO.

Thank you, that's exactly my point. :type:

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

--------------------------------------------------
You also brought up Paul.........

This happened to Paul, after the Lord’s resurrection.
--------------------------------------------------
And you are right, the term "heart of the earth" does means grave(the same as the word hell).

Jesus could have gone to heaven not to ascend but as a spirit before He rose from the dead. I think "paradise" therefore means heaven not the heart of the earth or Abraham's Bosom, paradise has never been coined as the grave, sheol or hades anywhere else in scripture. It's rather pointless to keep pointing to Luke 16:19-32, it doesn't settle the issue for me or create a contradiction in any way to think that Jesus took the thief on the cross UP to heaven or paradise on the same day they died.

The bible says Jesus was in the grave, literally His body was dead and buried, that does not necessarily infer that Jesus was in sheol for exactly 3 days and 3 nights as a spirit.

I am still lost as to how Jesus being in the grave, dead and buried and His spirit "has to be" (cannot be anywhere else) in sheol or hades for 3 days and 3 nights contributes to the "payment of sins"??

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

If those in Christ have already suffered the wrath of God in His Son...what further wrath is there for those in Christ? Anything other than a pre-trib rapture (catching up, meeting in the sky, etc.) defies any theological logic pertaining to the entire point of Christs suffering.

Exactly!! Agree 100%. :godisgood:

Darren

 

[Amy.G]

Hello Amy.G

Hello stilllearning. You are very polite.

Here is the main passage, as mentioned earlier........
Luke 16:19-32

I reread it, but I can't find where paradise is a separate compartment of hell. The rich man could see Abraham "afar off", but this is all spoken of in the spiritual realm, so it could still be heaven.

--------------------------------------------------
You also brought up Paul.........

This happened to Paul, after the Lord’s resurrection.
--------------------------------------------------

I don't find scripture that says that the compartment of hell known as paradise was moved somewhere else after the Lord's resurrection. If you have scripture, please show it to me.

And you are right, the term "heart of the earth" does means grave(the same as the word hell).

Hey! I got one right! :laugh: