Armenian Baptists?

[Jerome]

I have a question. I was saved in a Baptist Church that is Armenian [General Baptist], after many years of studying and reading very learned mens writings, and Holy Ghost conviction, I have become very Calvinistic in my theology

You're not still pastoring a General Baptist church since your theological shift, are you?

 

[psalms109:31]

My spell check doesn't recognize Arminian either it wants to change it to Armenian, but my spell check does recognize Calvinism though. :laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello jer2911

Here is a more complete explanation of perserverance of the saints that you might like
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc17.html


as you describe here;

Ok, I know I'm off topic, but this is an issue with me also. I once belonged to an Independent Baptist Church where we went out on Saturdays "soul winning" and we were taught to ask questions that only the worst reprobate would ever disagree with, and then we asked them to say a prayer and then the Pastor would tell them now you're saved and you have been forgiven of all your sins, past and present, and you can never lose it!

the idea of eternal security is a weak kind of replacement for this teaching[perserverance]...it is often used in churches that have not studied through these issues properly. I am glad to see you were taught of God to embrace the more complete biblical teaching which has more balance and depth.

 

[mandym]

I have a question. I was saved in a Baptist Church that is Armenian [General Baptist], after many years of studying and reading very learned mens writings, and Holy Ghost conviction, I have become very Calvinistic in my theology, especially in the area of eternal security. My question is, besides General Baptist and Free Will Baptist [very localized factions], are there any other Baptist denominations which are Armenian?

It is incorrect to equate General Baptist with Arminian. Free will Baptists are.

 

[quantumfaith]

When I say Arminian [sorry for the earlier misspelling ] I mean those who don't believe in eternal security....as I said in an earlier post, I may very well have [all these years] misunderstood Arminianism. Having said that, the SBC doesn't have factions that question eternal security do they?

The largest categorical group (denomination) that does not hold tightly to ES is the United Methodists. There may be others, but that one comes to mind.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, sorry



Ok, I hope that I understand Arminianism correctly--it is equated to those who don't believe in eternal security? I hope I haven't had it wrong all these years! God bless and thanks--I really didn't think any other Baptists have Arminian theology other than those small factions but I was curious.

I am sure there are some SBC members who may be dubious when it comes to ES. I also wonder about the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, who, as I remember splintered from the SBC a couple of decades ago. Not certain where they stand as a "denomination".

 

[Iconoclast]

It is incorrect to equate General Baptist with Arminian. Free will Baptists are.

Many are arminian for sure.

Baptists were first identified by the name General Baptists in 17th century England. They were called General Baptists because they believed in a general atonement — holding that the death of Christ atoned for the sins of all people. These churches were Arminian in tendency and held the possibility of falling from grace.
In the United States, the General Baptists also declined and were often overtaken by the churches of the Regular Baptists. Remnants were probably responsible for the rise of the Free Will Baptists in North Carolina. Other groups have risen that have an Arminian general atonement emphasis, including the General Six-Principle Baptists and the General Association of General Baptists. Today (2009), the majority of English and American Baptist churches hold a hybrid Calvinist/Arminian outlook, combining the general atonement whosoever will view of the General Baptists, with the eternal security view of the Regular/Particular Baptists.wikipedia

 

[psalms109:31]

We are to trust in Jesus over our own understanding. If we do that how can any one lose their salvation if they trust in Jesus over themselves unless they have not trusted Him as the scripture says. I've been told many things like I am working for my salvation, I might lose if I one day I no longer believe, or that I am just really trusting in my self. I have been even told I don't believe in osas. I don't care what they say or believe about me I am going to continue trust in Christ to finish what He started. That not because of my trust I am saved but because the finish work of Christ. Trust in Jesus as the scripture says no matter what men say and you can't lose no way. I find it not easy believism?

 

[Benjamin]

I have a question. I was saved in a Baptist Church that is Armenian [General Baptist], after many years of studying and reading very learned mens writings, and Holy Ghost conviction, I have become very Calvinistic in my theology, especially in the area of eternal security.

Curious, before you went about being swayed over, especially on that premise of eternal security, to being all “Hard Determinist” …err I mean Calvinist, I mean listenin to and studyin them ther Calvie’s claims about those “Armenians” had you ever read what the Remonstrates actually say about this?:

Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]

That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.

 

[Van]

I just want to double down on Iconoclast's post #27.

One of the distinctives of Baptists is once saved, always saved. Those actually saved will endure, so perseverance proves salvation rather than provides salvation.

Another distinctive of Baptists is General Reconciliation, where Christ died for all mankind, rather than just for the preselected elect, as Calvinism claims. But only those who "receive reconciliation" through God's acceptance of their faith in Christ, obtain the benefit of Christ's propitiatory death for all mankind.

What is the view on these two topics, that you want to walk away from. I certainly agree with you that getting a person to say a prayer (just to get you to go away) inhibits salvation. That kind of behavior hurts the ministry of Christ, and presents a false gospel that avoids the truth of turning our lives in their entirety over to Christ, and serving Christ within the body of Christ. The false teaching is called "easy believism" and misses the message of scripture completely.

 

[Jerome]

And let's not forget the Reformed Baptists of the northeast US and Canada (they merged with the Wesleyan Church).

 

[jbh28]

I just want to double down on Iconoclast's post #27.

One of the distinctives of Baptists is once saved, always saved. Those actually saved will endure, so perseverance proves salvation rather than provides salvation.

Wow, a non-Calvinists actually got this right.

Another distinctive of Baptists is General Reconciliation, where Christ died for all mankind, rather than just for the preselected elect, as Calvinism claims. But only those who "receive reconciliation" through God's acceptance of their faith in Christ, obtain the benefit of Christ's propitiatory death for all mankind.

Actually, Baptists have been split pretty much from the beginning on this issue. That was the difference between General Baptists and Particular Baptists.

What is the view on these two topics, that you want to walk away from. I certainly agree with you that getting a person to say a prayer (just to get you to go away) inhibits salvation. That kind of behavior hurts the ministry of Christ, and presents a false gospel that avoids the truth of turning our lives in their entirety over to Christ, and serving Christ within the body of Christ. The false teaching is called "easy believism" and misses the message of scripture completely.

It's sad how many people want to remove repentance out of salvation. aka the SOTL

 

[Jeremiah2911]

You're not still pastoring a General Baptist church since your theological shift, are you?

Are you the GB police? :smilewinkgrin:

Yes, [for 11 yrs] but for 2 years I have been praying to either 1) Change our affiliation since my congregation [majority] agrees with my theology anyhow
2) Start a Church /find a SBC church in a different city/town [still have kids in school and hate to be drastic unless the Lord truly moves me] or 3)Fight the denomination for its original beliefs--the original doctrine/usage book stated that true believers will endure to the end --I was shocked when I found out they changed it to something like --we are free moral agents and can turn away after salvation and be forever lost-----but since the denomination itself has become so liberal and Purpose Driven Church minded, I'm in no spirit to do so....God bless

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Hello jer2911

Here is a more complete explanation of perserverance of the saints that you might like
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc17.html


as you describe here;


the idea of eternal security is a weak kind of replacement for this teaching[perserverance]...it is often used in churches that have not studied through these issues properly. I am glad to see you were taught of God to embrace the more complete biblical teaching which has more balance and depth.

Thank you and God bless you, and I'll study that link!

 

[Jeremiah2911]

It is incorrect to equate General Baptist with Arminian. Free will Baptists are.

Hello, I think you may be confusing General Baptists with GARBC --trust me, GB's are Arminian.....God bless

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Many are arminian for sure.

Baptists were first identified by the name General Baptists in 17th century England. They were called General Baptists because they believed in a general atonement — holding that the death of Christ atoned for the sins of all people. These churches were Arminian in tendency and held the possibility of falling from grace.
In the United States, the General Baptists also declined and were often overtaken by the churches of the Regular Baptists. Remnants were probably responsible for the rise of the Free Will Baptists in North Carolina. Other groups have risen that have an Arminian general atonement emphasis, including the General Six-Principle Baptists and the General Association of General Baptists. Today (2009), the majority of English and American Baptist churches hold a hybrid Calvinist/Arminian outlook, combining the general atonement whosoever will view of the General Baptists, with the eternal security view of the Regular/Particular Baptists.wikipedia

Amen! Thank you for that explanation.....pretty well answers my question

 

[Jerome]

From Southern Baptist Founder (the first Secretary of the Foreign Mission Board of the SBC) Rev. James B. Taylor's book Virginia Baptist Ministers, published in the 1850s:

the view now generally adopted by the Baptists [is] that the atonement is general in its nature

Taylor's Northern Baptist contemporary Edward Hiscox agreed that among Baptists in America:

the "general atonement" view is for the most part adopted

 

[righteousdude2]

Let Me Make This Perfectly Clear....

.....I'm am without a doubt, a Southern California Southern Baptist type Baptist, and proud of it! No Armenian or Calvinistic holdings or those kind of things for me. I am nothing more than a Baptist type Baptist, and I've been a Baptist type Baptist for as long as I can remember. I enjoy living the life of a Southern Baptist, here in southern California, born in Detriot, which would make me a Northerner by birth! :laugh:

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Curious, before you went about being swayed over, especially on that premise of eternal security, to being all “Hard Determinist” …err I mean Calvinist, I mean listenin to and studyin them ther Calvie’s claims about those “Armenians” had you ever read what the Remonstrates actually say about this?:

Article 5.
[Assurance and Security - corresponds to the fifth of TULIP’s five points, Perseverance of the Saints]

That those who are incorporated into Christ by true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving Spirit, as a result have full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no deceit or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginning of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of neglecting grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with the full confidence of our mind.

Ok, you'll have to ask me a more direct question please.....this is just saying we cannot be sure of one's actual salvation....can't disagree with that....if you are making fun of Calvinism or me, just make fun of me, I'm easy
Salvation is either a work of God or man, and that will totally define whether you think can lose it or not

 

[Skandelon]

Salvation is either a work of God or man, and that will totally define whether you think can lose it or not

This is what we call a false dichotomy. Salvation can certainly be a work of God without being "irresistibly" applied to a select few.