Armenian Baptists?

[Winman]

Jeremiah, I have heard the argument, Why did God create men whom he knew would not believe?

Well, if you believe God determined they would not believe, this would be cruel and monstrous. And this is exactly what many here believe. Actually, they believe God determined they CANNOT believe, they are UNABLE to be willing to trust Jesus.

But if every man is ABLE to choose God of his own free will and trust him, then it is completely just that God created them. Those that perish have no one to blame but themselves, they made their own choice.

If Calvinism is true, every lost sinner has the perfect excuse. He can argue he was born a sinner through no fault or choice of his own, that he was created UNABLE to be willing to believe God. He can claim (rightfully) that he was created with a sinful nature that compels him to sin, and that he was unable to do anything but sin.

Now, if that is not the perfect excuse, I don't know what is.

You see, in reality this doctrine makes excuse for man, and blames God for sin. That is all it is really about. Don't be fooled by all the high talk.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

I don't either, but I'm asking how it is misrepresentative of Calvinism.
So, sticking with the analogy with Noah, that would be like his commanding his kids to go tell the drugged people to get on the boat, right? How does that avoid the argument of it being disingenuous?

I think most people can see the clear distinction between Noah merely foreknowing that many will reject him and giving them a drug so that they will certainly reject him, don't you?

I understand your analogy, I just don't agree with it.....we both believe in God's foreknowledge--if His mind, timing, thoughts were like ours, He wouldn't be much, so us trying to understand everything from eternity past till now till eternity future is kind of futile [but it makes great fun debating].....Having said we believe in foreknowledge, that very subject [which must be accepted] can't be considered without some pain [many people won't be saved so why allow them to be born?].....How we live that out [from birth to eternity], and God's place therein, is where the debate lies[point A--creation to point B--eternity] ....as I've said before, issues such as predestination and election are extremely difficult to debate against [because they are scriptural], and I'm not sure what the importance of being right or wrong in the debate is, because we both and most on this board believe a person must be born again--drawn by the spirit, saved by the grace of God. I said to you before, besides that point [salvation], does anything else really matter? Which you replied that if I thought Biblical theology was important, yes--I still don't see how.... It doesn't change my Scriptural basis for teaching, evangelism, etc....

But Calvinism doesn't say "for whatever reason." It teaches that the reason is ultimately because they were not elected by God, born again and thus remain in their natural totally unable condition.

I still have a lot to learn....I haven't taken any "Calvinism" classes so I don't know what it actually teaches......but I do know what John Calvin [who wasn't a Calvinist btw] teaches.....we were in John 17 last night and I looked up his commentary on Judas [John 17:12]:
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

From Calvins Commentary: That the Scripture might be fulfilled. This relates to the former clause. Judas fell, that the Scripture might be fulfilled But it would be a most unfounded argument, if any one were to infer from this, that the revolt of Judas ought to be ascribed to God rather than to himself; because the prediction laid him under a nccesslty. For the course of events ought not to be ascribed to prophecies, because it was predicted in them; and, indeed, the prophets threaten nothing but what would have happened, though they had not spoken of it. It is not in the prophecies, therefore, that we must go to seek the cause of events.

There we have it from the pen of Mr. Calvin himself--Judas' downfall [or any mans] ought not to be ascribed to God but to himself....I will call myself Calvinistic because I agree with him, not necessarily what "Calvinism" teaches....God bless

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Yes, I believe God has foreknowledge of who will believe and who will not and elects those who believe.

But I do not believe God's foreknowledge determines what will be.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you....are you saying God is not in the process? With that analogy, wouldn't Satan and his army have a fighting chance in the end after all? I understand your point however and I live in the here and now, I preach for sinners to come to Christ.....I don't preach "Calvinism" I preach the Bible.....I just don't believe any man can come to Christ unless He first comes to them [elect], but I also believe no man has an excuse for his sin according to Romans 1, I believe the Bible says God wants all to be saved [John 3]......How do I reconcile that? I don't, I just keep preaching the Bible!

I have given the example of Nathanael in Jn 1:44-51. Look at what is said and the language used, I do not believe it accidental.

In vs. 47 it says Jesus SAW Nathanael coming to him. Compare this to the father in Lk 15:20 who saw his son coming home in repentance. This is foreknowledge.

In the same verse Jesus calls Nathanael a true Israelite. Compare this to Rom 2:28-29, 9:6-13, and especially 11:1-5. This is foreknowledge, Jesus knew Nathanael would believe, he was elect.

In vs. 48 we see Nathanael was shocked and asked Jesus, "Whence KNOWEST thou me?" This is foreknowledge, compare to Rom 8:29.

Jesus answered, BEFORE that Philip CALLED thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I SAW THEE. This is foreknowledge, Jesus saw Nathanael and knew him before he was called. See Rom 8:29-30

Now, IN TIME, Nathanael believes on Jesus. See Rom 8:29-30. Jesus saw and knew Nathanael before he was called. He knew he would believe calling him an Israelite indeed (true Israelite). And when he believed he was justified.

Amen I don't see any disagreements here.....God bless

 

[JesusFan]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you....are you saying God is not in the process? With that analogy, wouldn't Satan and his army have a fighting chance in the end after all? I understand your point however and I live in the here and now, I preach for sinners to come to Christ.....I don't preach "Calvinism" I preach the Bible.....I just don't believe any man can come to Christ unless He first comes to them [elect], but I also believe no man has an excuse for his sin according to Romans 1, I believe the Bible says God wants all to be saved [John 3]......How do I reconcile that? I don't, I just keep preaching the Bible!

Amen I don't see any disagreements here.....God bless

what though IS the basis of the foreknowledge of God concerning the saints!

is it based upon His causing/determining the sinners to be saints?
that He effectually apllies the grace of the Cross to us directly, His work, or bases it upon our responding by faith to His offer of Christ?

Either its causal based/determined by God, or is indirect, when we accept jesus with our faith!

 

[Benjamin]

Amen , and thank you for clearing that up for me--I was under the pretense that Arminian theology was based on the opposition of eternal security of the believer, so I was really wrong for a lot of years!

You're welcome, and I would like to address another issue that you have raised if you don't mind.

Do you believe God has foreknowledge? Just curious.....God bless

A few questions I would ask you concerning God’s divine foreknowledge is if you believe it necessarily equates into Him having to pre-determine “all” things and predestine every happening in the world? Including evil? Can it mean that??? Is the message He sent into the world only for those He pre-determined to believe it? If so, does He righteously judge His creatures who don’t even have a choice in their response to His light that He sent into all the world? Are His commands for all to seek Him and come to the truth not genuine? Deut 32:4.

Have you ever studied the view of “Hard Determinism” and its relationship to the “Problem of Evil” and asked yourself if the Calvinist/Determinist view aligns with the other Divine attributes of God that we know from the scriptures? If not, couldn't the finite view of Divine foreknowledge must = Determinism be mistaken and God's Divine knowledge of all things not limit Him to allow for His grace to be genuinely offered to all men through them being created with the free will to choose and thereby His righteous judgment for all His creatures on this issue accordingly?

 

[Jeremiah2911]

A few questions I would ask you concerning God’s divine foreknowledge is if you believe it necessarily equates into Him having to pre-determine “all” things and predestine every happening in the world? Including evil? Can it mean that???

Hello again Benjamin! Well, I'm not sure I understand your question here [I seem to say that a lot]; I know the Scripture says:
2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
So since there are evil men, they must be doing evil--Since I trust God is Sovereign however, I trust evil happens only according to the plan and design of God. [He hates evil [sin], doesn't enter into His mind] IOW Satan is not Sovereign. I guess I would ask you a question--did Job have anything evil happen to him? What part did God have in that situation? [He allowed it] If God didn't have control, how would evil not win out period? How would anyone be saved at all? I'm not trying to dodge your question, I'm just wondering how you can ask it and believe God is in control. Reality is, there is evil in the world, the devil is the devil, but he's God's devil [borrowed a line from Luther there ]

Is the message He sent into the world only for those He pre-determined to believe it? If so, does He righteously judge His creatures who don’t even have a choice in their response to His light that He sent into all the world? Are His commands for all to seek Him and come to the truth not genuine? Deut 32:4.

My ability to comprehend this argument is limited, just so you know, but I think I answered this in my last 2 posts. I don't write Scriptures, I just read them and try to understand them [I do believe them]. I would never criticize God's righteous judgment, I won't question His plan, I will strive to do His will and He said to Go and preach the Gospel to [all the world].....many will reject the Gospel [Jesus Christ] leaving them with no excuse --yes those commands are genuine--Why won't all people come? I trust God knows whom the elect are, and I trust Him to use us as ministers to feed them the Word, and I trust Him to bring them to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.....as I said above [posts], God wants all to be saved [not perish], whosoever will may come--how do I reconcile those things? I don't I just preach and teach the Bible....

Have you ever studied the view of “Hard Determinism” and its relationship to the “Problem of Evil” and asked yourself if the Calvinist/Determinist view aligns with the other Divine attributes of God that we know from the scriptures? If not, couldn't the finite view of Divine foreknowledge must = Determinism be mistaken and God's Divine knowledge of all things not limit Him to allow for His grace to be genuinely offered to all men through them being created with the free will to choose and thereby His righteous judgment for all His creatures on this issue accordingly?

Well, I think His offer is freely given to all.....I would be wary of a man who chose God by his own free will however [I think Mr. President said he was a "Christian by choice"--I bet the Lord is glad to have him on His side!] God bless

 

[Benjamin]

So since there are evil men, they must be doing evil--Since I trust God is Sovereign however, I trust evil happens only according to the plan and design of God. [He hates evil [sin], doesn't enter into His mind] IOW Satan is not Sovereign. I guess I would ask you a question--did Job have anything evil happen to him? What part did God have in that situation? [He allowed it] If God didn't have control, how would evil not win out period? How would anyone be saved at all? I'm not trying to dodge your question, I'm just wondering how you can ask it and believe God is in control.

Ok, I'll address the example you bring up:

So in the story of Job had God pre-determined every response of Job and not only planned every evil thing that happened to him but how he would respond, or not??? When the Devil checked in, being all proud and all from going about the destruction of man and God challenges him when saying, “Have you considered my man Job?” what God “really” meant was “Have you considered this man which I specially selected out and pre-determined that he never give in against his faith in Me?” ? I don’t think so, and I’ll tell you why.

First, let’s look at this inspirational message about the great faith of “a man” in the Good and Righteousness of God (Deut 32:4) is going when even the devil begins to answer God’s challenge by alluding that if God has determined that Job is always blessed and protected then how sincere is such challenge saying, “Yeah riiight, God, haven’t You built a hedge around this man? Take down the protection barrier and I’ll wager Job will curse You to Your face!” IOW’s what the Devil is asking is is this about me overcoming You (pre-determining all things concerning this man) or is it about me overcoming the faith the of Job on his own?!?

Second, agreed, God is “Sovereign”, yet other Divine attributes not to be ignored of Him is that God is “Truth” along with Him being Only “Good”. SO, at this point in the challenge was God still maintaining your (the Calvinist/Determinist view of Divine Sovereignty you adopted about control of the will of the man) form of control (having pre-determined every response Job will make) of the will of the man Job or was Job “truly” on his own? Did God lie about this situation and the test was really against Him controlling the actions of Job or does this show that the evil was coming from Satan, the challenge was against the free will of Job, and God was indeed standing on Job’s free will abilities to hold on to his "own" faith in the goodness and righteousness of God in the face of adversity?

Finally, to answer your questions here:

Since I trust God is Sovereign however,

I would remind you that this concerns your philosophical view of Divine sovereignty (the Calvinist/Determinist view) Col 2:8.

I trust evil happens only according to the plan and design of God. [He hates evil [sin], doesn't enter into His mind]

You have said evil happens according to “the plan and design of God” and that “evil doesn’t enter in into His mind” how can God both plan evil and yet it not enter His mind? Both can not logically be true. Another attribute of God not to be ignored is that He is Truth. (Deut 32:4)

I guess I would ask you a question--did Job have anything evil happen to him?

Yes.

What part did God have in that situation? [He allowed it]

We agree God that allowed the evil to happen.

If God didn't have control, how would evil not win out period?

Real faith in the truth and the grace of God, the faith of Job did indeed win out without God controlling his response, did it not? I will add if it were not for the Goodness of God there would be nothing to have faith in, praise God! You ask how?
I say because God has put forth Truth, Love, and Light in the world for "all" the creatures He created (genuinely) and those who freely stand on that Rock, have love of the Truth, will know the Truth and love will win out over evil. Knowing God is knowing Love; He is Love.

How would anyone be saved at all?

Without Love, without Truth, without the Light that God has put before everyman that has come into the world there would be no hope. But by FAITH, which comes from love of Truth we are saved by His loving grace. This calls for a genuine response from the creatures put into the world for righteous judgment in this matter to exist. Simply, if all responses were under God's direct deterministic control and not according to creaturely volition then judgment and justice would equate to God judging His own pre-determined decisions.

I'm not trying to dodge your question,

I can see that.

I'm just wondering how you can ask it and believe God is in control.

I'm glad you appear to be still searching for answers about this.
Hope you can understand why I would never assign evil to God through holding a particular view of what His Sovereignty must consist of all for the sake of supporting some systematic theological view, in which logically all it points necessarily must hinge on Deterministic Sovereignty, according to them, for Him to be in control. I find it very problematic when others discard other important Divine attributes such as God being Only Good and without moral evil at all costs to maintain such a theological system .

Well, I think His offer is freely given to all.....I would be wary of a man who chose God by his own free will however

Well, all I have time to say about that is "free will" is not bad word like Calvinist dogma attempts teach and that I did. I truly responded to His influences of my own free will. God is Great!

 

[Winman]

To understand Job, you need to read Psalm 91, especially verses 11-12. These are the verses Satan misquoted to Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple.

There are many other verses, especially in the Psalms, but Psalm 91 is in particular a promise by God to protect those who trust in him and faithfully obey him. There is no promise to the disobedient.

When Satan accused God of putting a hedge about Job and his house, and about all he had, this was actually true. Because Job was a very good man and obeyed God, he did enjoy God's protection.

Satan was in fact accusing God of buying Job's affection. If God were to remove his protection and allow him to be afflicted, Satan claimed Job would curse God to his face. (Job 1:9-11)

Satan was also accusing Job's love of God as being superficial, that Job only loved God because he was blessed.

This is why God removed his protection of Job and allowed Satan to afflict him. It was to prove he was not buying Job's love, but that also Job's love was sincere.

And in the grand scheme, this was not evil. Job received exactly twice what he had lost, except only he again received seven sons and three daughters.

Why did Job only receive seven sons and three daughters? Because his original children were all saved, he lost none of them.

But you cannot take the story of Job and apply it to all men, or even all Christians. God's promise of protection is only to those who are obedient. Satan has free reign to deal with unbelievers as he wishes. (2 Tim 2:26)

 

[Benjamin]

This is why God removed his protection of Job and allowed Satan to afflict him. It was to prove he was not buying Job's love, but that also Job's love was sincere.

Amen! So to reiterate the point I wished to address regarding Jer2911's example using the story of Job, concerning the view of Sovereign Deterministic Control, while discussing God’s protection of the faithful… is that whatever protection, guidance/or as some believe: “all determining aspects” that God was controlling in Job’s life, including presumably deterministically controlling his will, is that these would have been removed at this point in time so 1) God would not have been “controlling” Job’s will and 2) if one were to he were to believe otherwise it would mean the removal of God’s protection in the challenge was disingenuous (thereby also to hold to the Deterministic view one would be forced to disregard God’s attribute of Truth); IOW’s the test would have been against what God had pre-determined rather than against the will of Job to maintain his love and faith in the righteousness and goodness of God through his own volition/free will. (This in sharp contrast to the Calvinist view of the necessity of God’s sovereignty meaning He’s always maintaining control of the creatures will by determination)

 

[Jeremiah2911]

To understand Job, you need to read Psalm 91, especially verses 11-12. These are the verses Satan misquoted to Jesus when he tempted him to leap off the temple.

There are many other verses, especially in the Psalms, but Psalm 91 is in particular a promise by God to protect those who trust in him and faithfully obey him. There is no promise to the disobedient.

When Satan accused God of putting a hedge about Job and his house, and about all he had, this was actually true. Because Job was a very good man and obeyed God, he did enjoy God's protection.

Satan was in fact accusing God of buying Job's affection. If God were to remove his protection and allow him to be afflicted, Satan claimed Job would curse God to his face. (Job 1:9-11)

Satan was also accusing Job's love of God as being superficial, that Job only loved God because he was blessed.

This is why God removed his protection of Job and allowed Satan to afflict him. It was to prove he was not buying Job's love, but that also Job's love was sincere.

Hello again Winman, I don't necessarily agree with your assessment here....what if I wanted to say God didn't need to prove anything to Satan, but maybe he wanted to fix one little problem Job seemed to have, which would seem to me to be self righteousness [read where God speaks to Job beginning in Chapter 38].....I don't think God needs to prove anything to the devil

And in the grand scheme, this was not evil. Job received exactly twice what he had lost, except only he again received seven sons and three daughters.

Why did Job only receive seven sons and three daughters? Because his original children were all saved, he lost none of them.

Am I missing something? Where do you read that at? Just curious....I assumed Jobs wife got her reward for the "curse God and die" remark by having to have 20 kids this time

But you cannot take the story of Job and apply it to all men, or even all Christians. God's promise of protection is only to those who are obedient. Satan has free reign to deal with unbelievers as he wishes. (2 Tim 2:26)

Now please consider what you just wrote......you are giving Satan sovereignty--if he had the free reign to deal with unbelievers as he wishes, they'd all be dead wouldn't they?

As far as practicality, the story of Job shows whatever situations we go through in life, God has His design and purpose in it....I consider what happened to Job to be evil, but it was still God's design....

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Amen! So to reiterate the point I wished to address regarding Jer2911's example using the story of Job, concerning the view of Sovereign Deterministic Control, while discussing God’s protection of the faithful… is that whatever protection, guidance/or as some believe: “all determining aspects” that God was controlling in Job’s life, including presumably deterministically controlling his will, is that these would have been removed at this point in time so 1) God would not have been “controlling” Job’s will and 2) if one were to he were to believe otherwise it would mean the removal of God’s protection in the challenge was disingenuous (thereby also to hold to the Deterministic view one would be forced to disregard God’s attribute of Truth); IOW’s the test would have been against what God had pre-determined rather than against the will of Job to maintain his love and faith in the righteousness and goodness of God through his own volition/free will. (This in sharp contrast to the Calvinist view of the necessity of God’s sovereignty meaning He’s always maintaining control of the creatures will by determination)

Hello Benjamin.....I will have to read your two posts a little more before I can respond cause again I'm not sure the debate here.....let me ask you, do you believe God knew Jobs reaction to his trial? The ending before it started? If you answer yes to this, I'm not sure your debate.....if you answer no, then God isn't sovereign and you believe in open deism which cannot be true....again, I'm not certain I'm understanding......God bless