Arminian...Calvinist....Must one decide?

[preacher4truth]

None of the scripture you provided prove Reformed theology. In fact, they blatantly dispute it

John

You offer no proof that the Scriptures presented refute Reformed Theology. My bet is that you can't. That, and you're just being blatant. :wavey: :laugh: :love2:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The thread is about the question of why decide to be Arminian or Calvinistic.

1. He attacked Arminiansm

2. He has stated over and over that he is a Calvinist/Reformed Baptist.

Hence, his response was based on his Calvinistic views, and my answer took that into consideration.

Why are you and him suddenly ashamed of being Calvinists?

John

And here is my response of 2/2012 ....the last time someone tried to button hole me.

This is funny......why should I as a believer have any allegiance to any side...It is amusing to think I would ever even consider it. Its not that I was any object of anyones ferocity as some in here claim, never made to suffer at anyones hands like this weakling is saying, therefore I am not vengeful. I choose my way of life, my understanding of scripture etc., very calmly without any concern about what anyone thinks & immensely enjoy being that way. Does that answer your question?
__________________

 

[Michael Wrenn]

First, you misrepresent paul's teachings.

And then, you split hairs over labels.

What difference does your label make? You believe in TULIP which makes you "Reformed" at the very least.

I never used to think of Reformed Baptists as an enemy, but lately, when i see how they are trying to just take over our churches, and call the rest of us heretics, uneducated, and unsaved, I am changing my mind.

Maybe you guys are an enemy, else you wouldn't be so nasty and aggressive in your theology and approach to others.

John

You've only seen the tip of the iceberg - in this thread, at least.

 

[Alive in Christ]

The only identifier I use in conversation regarding me is "evangelical christian"

I am not an arminion, or Calivinst

I guess I could create an identity for me. :wavey:

Hmmm. tick...tock...tick tock...

I know!

I am a "scripturist" :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The only identifier I use in conversation regarding me is "evangelical christian"

I am not an arminion, or Calivinst

I guess I could create an identity for me. :wavey:

Hmmm. tick...tock...tick tock...

I know!

I am a "scripturist" :thumbs:

You are also a "Banjo oligist" :laugh:

 

[saturneptune]

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist.

If it werent for a couple of really extreme beliefs added to reformed theology then I would have to say that my beliefs would lean closer to Calvinism.

But those couple of extreme beliefs stop me in my tracks and prevent me from being reformed.

But on the other hand, I am definately not Arminian either.

I dont believe either camp is totally scriptural.

John

Three cheers for you!!! It is like having to choose between Obama and Romney. I choose neither. I have read Scripture for years, and have followed thread after thread until I want to throw up. Each side enters the thread with an agenda. Each side uses isolated Scripture to boost their opinion. It then degenerates to heretic, you are not saved, etc. The 100% truth is only the Lord knows the mysteries of how free will and His sovereignty work together. It is not told in explicit detail in the Bible. One thing I do know, neither side with all their theological genuises have any idea what they are talking about. I believe the Bible calls it mindless babble. It enriches no ones walk with the Lord, brings no one into the family of God, and it sure does not help the poor.

To be honest, I wish you one issue Calvinists had election up one nostril, and wish you one issue free willers had "my choice" up the other.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Three cheers for you!!! It is like having to choose between Obama and Romney. I choose neither. I have read Scripture for years, and have followed thread after thread until I want to throw up. Each side enters the thread with an agenda. Each side uses isolated Scripture to boost their opinion. It then degenerates to heretic, you are not saved, etc. The 100% truth is only the Lord knows the mysteries of how free will and His sovereignty work together. It is not told in explicit detail in the Bible. One thing I do know, neither side with all their theological genuises have any idea what they are talking about. I believe the Bible calls it mindless babble. It enriches no ones walk with the Lord, brings no one into the family of God, and it sure does not help the poor.

To be honest, I wish you one issue Calvinists had election up one nostril, and wish you one issue free willers had "my choice" up the other.

(See bold) I agree with you on that.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: God's will is not free from His own nature. He cannot lie, He cannot choose to do or be anything contrary to His own nature. His will is a servant of His nature. His nature is immutable and so is His will. Man's will is no more free than God's will. Man cannot choose contrary to his own nature. The Divine will and the human will serve only to express what both God and man are by nature.

HP: I certainly hope everyone is paying close attention to this statement by Biblicist. He is expressing the very fundamental and false philosophical basis of the fatalistic theological position he holds to. The problem is he is trying to reason from that which he does not know, (i.e, the nature and mind of God and how it works) and in the process denies that which we with certainty know. He assumes without proof and begs the question as to the nature of an Infinite God. While assuming without proof that which he does not know, he tries to foist his philosophical views of God and his nature upon man, in direct contradiction to the God given testimony to man via consciousness. Who said God's will is a servant of his nature? Who said God's will is not free?

If there was one fact that we could gain from the clear testimony of our own conscience, it would be that man is free, not simply to do as one wills, ( the meaningless Calvinistic sophism used by Calvinists to try to soften the absurdity of their position on the will of man) but free to actually be the first cause of one's formed intentions. If man's actions were nothing more than the product of one's nature, no moral blame or praise could be predicated of anything man could or might do. If what Biblicist theorizes in the philosophy he sets forth was actually true, all praise or blame for anything God or man could or would do, would be centered on one's necessitated nature, and not on God or the individual themselves.

Such a philosophical position is absolutely contrary to Scripture, reason, and experience. God directly holds man personally accountable, upon pain of eternal separation from Himself, for sin. That is living proof that man is justly blamed as a first cause of his moral intents, and is not simply the product of a necessitated nature as Bibliocist falsely sets forth.

The philosophical notions set forth in this one paragraph by Biblicist is in fundamental error and lies at the heart of the false necessitated system of Calvinism. If one is desiring to distance themselves from such a system of pure necessity, precisely in lockstep with rank Calvinism, such a one would of necessity need to understand that the heart of the system they so detest is the very one presented here by Biblicist and should be avoided at all cost.

 

[convicted1]

Well you can make gas outa both Cabbage & Corn....however you can make Whiskey outa corn & thats a plus for corn.:love2:

Eat enough cabbage, and you can be you own "gas pump". Just stay in New Joisey if/when you do....:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Eat enough cabbage, and you can be you own "gas pump". Just stay in New Joisey if/when you do....:laugh:

There are places in Joisey that smell that way if I were here or not......kinda like your local sewer authority before 9am. Pleasant thoughts, right? :laugh:

 

[fortytworc]

You bet the Truth is important and that it affects your salvation. Do you want God’s Truth, or some religion’s truth? I want only God’s Truth. If you are not in God’s Truth, then you are in a man’s truth. Acts 5:29, "We ought to obey God rather than men". How do you think you can deal with sin in your life if you do not have the power and wisdom of the Truth? The relationship with Jesus is by His Word, it is a deep and personal relationship. Do you want a deep and personal relationship with the spirit of Calvin? Do you not know that false doctrines are from demons? 1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
People teaching falseness are actually doing the work of the devil. 2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Deuteronomy 4:2; 5:32, Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18-19 warn against adding to or detracting from Scripture.
We are exhorted to check out teaching against Scripture (Isaiah 8:20; Acts 17:11.)

Jesus says that tradition keeps man from God’s truth:

Matthew 15:6-9 Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”

Did you hear that? You NULLIFY the word of God when we believe and obey in manmade commands.

The knowledge of God through Jesus Christ gives peace. Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 2 Peter 1:2.

Here are many scriptures to support debating.

Acts 9:29
He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Acts 18:28
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate: they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them.

2 Corinthians 3:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope that it is plain to your conscience.

2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. Galatians 1:10

Paul opposes Peter. See Galatians 2:11-21

Galatians 4:16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

Philippians 1:7-8 It is right for me to feel this way about all of you, since I have you in my heart; for whether I am in chains or defending and confirming the gospel, all of you share in God's grace with me. God can testify how I long for all of you with the affection of Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:3-4 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith.

1 Timothy 4:6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

2 Timothy 2:25-26 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Titus 1:9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

Acts 4:20 For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.

I cannot help speak about what I know about Jesus. So, why are you even in a debate group if you do not know why one should spend so much time speaking the Truth?

My question "What is the importance" is about the Arminian\Calvin doctrines. Then my other questions are in light of the uproar over ones position on these two concepts alone. I might not have been clear on that. So, the question is "Does ones belief about these teachings have any bearing on my salvation, my walk with God, my witness and testimony?" The question of time spent is time spent debating these two issues only. The first and basic question is "What must I do to be saved?" If you understood my first question are you saying that one isn't saved unless they have a correct (read 'your') view on Calvin\Arminian doctrines? Does my correctness on these mean I am in Gods truth,thus able to deal with sin in my life? if i read you correctly, anyone on the wrong side of either of these men's teachings is 'adding to or detracting from Scripture' and 'nullifies the word of God'. The "debate" Paul had with the Jews was about who Jesus was. Most of Paul's instructions to the various churches pertained to those teaching a 'gospel' which combined grace and works of one sort or another, grace plus circumcision, dietary laws, keeping feasts, mostly combining grace with the necessity of doing any work in order to be saved. I began this thread to learn. I am part of BB to learn. I am not here to convince another Believer that he or she apposes the Truth because they disagree with me. We are to pick up the 'Sword of the Spirit' and fight our true enemy, the accuser of the brethren, the devil. More often it seems we try to use this sword to fight each other and may find ourselves inadvertently becoming part of those who accuse the brethren along with the devil. No one has to agree with me. I refuse to be an accuser of my brethren. It is up to the Holy Spirit to work in me and my brothers and sisters. How do I deal with sin in my life? I point to the Finished work of Jesus, his blood shed for me as my Only Righteousness . Thank you for your time and input!

 

[Moriah]

My question "What is the importance" is about the Arminian\Calvin doctrines. Then my other questions are in light of the uproar over ones position on these two concepts alone. I might not have been clear on that.

I understand that is what you asked, and I gave my answer.

So, the question is "Does ones belief about these teachings have any bearing on my salvation, my walk with God, my witness and testimony?"

If you are teaching someone that they cannot believe in Jesus, and to wait to see if God saves them, as Calvinists believe, then yes, it will have a bearing on your witnessing to others.

The question of time spent is time spent debating these two issues only.

I do not think that one should ever stop speaking the Truth and correcting error.

The first and basic question is "What must I do to be saved?" If you understood my first question are you saying that one isn't saved unless they have a correct (read 'your') view on Calvin\Arminian doctrines?

Calvinists and Arminians both believe that the Holy Spirit causes one to believe. If you tell unbelievers that they cannot believe, then again, that could interfere with them knowing the truth and being saved.

Does my correctness on these mean I am in Gods truth,thus able to deal with sin in my life?

If you believe that you can keep sinning and still be saved, then I do believe that that could interfere with being able to deal with sin in your life.

if i read you correctly, anyone on the wrong side of either of these men's teachings is 'adding to or detracting from Scripture' and 'nullifies the word of God'.

Jesus tells us that when we follow man’s commands, then we nullify God’s word.

The "debate" Paul had with the Jews was about who Jesus was. Most of Paul's instructions to the various churches pertained to those teaching a 'gospel' which combined grace and works of one sort or another, grace plus circumcision, dietary laws, keeping feasts, mostly combining grace with the necessity of doing any work in order to be saved.

Calvinists teach a Jesus who only died for the sins of some, so I debate Calvinists to show that the Son of God died for the whole world's sins. So, I am debating on who Jesus is. Contending for the faith is, well, contending for the faith.

I began this thread to learn. I am part of BB to learn. I am not here to convince another Believer that he or she apposes the Truth because they disagree with me.

It does not sound like you are convinced that a person can know the Truth from the scriptures. I disagree with you.

We are to pick up the 'Sword of the Spirit' and fight our true enemy, the accuser of the brethren, the devil.

The Bible says that people who teach false doctrines are doing the devil’s work. I am trying to help people from doing the devil's work.

More often it seems we try to use this sword to fight each other and may find ourselves inadvertently becoming part of those who accuse the brethren along with the devil.

You mean, as you are doing to me right now. Be careful how you judge, it is probably the very thing that you are guilty of. I have done nothing wrong by correcting, refuting, and rebuking.

No one has to agree with me. I refuse to be an accuser of my brethren. It is up to the Holy Spirit to work in me and my brothers and sisters.

You have falsely judged me, and that is sin.

 

[fortytworc]

I understand that is what you asked, and I gave my answer.

If you are teaching someone that they cannot believe in Jesus, and to wait to see if God saves them, as Calvinists believe, then yes, it will have a bearing on your witnessing to others.

I do not think that one should ever stop speaking the Truth and correcting error.

Calvinists and Arminians both believe that the Holy Spirit causes one to believe. If you tell unbelievers that they cannot believe, then again, that could interfere with them knowing the truth and being saved.

If you believe that you can keep sinning and still be saved, then I do believe that that could interfere with being able to deal with sin in your life.

Jesus tells us that when we follow man’s commands, then we nullify God’s word.

Calvinists teach a Jesus who only died for the sins of some, so I debate Calvinists to show that the Son of God died for the whole world's sins. So, I am debating on who Jesus is. Contending for the faith is, well, contending for the faith.

It does not sound like you are convinced that a person can know the Truth from the scriptures. I disagree with you.

The Bible says that people who teach false doctrines are doing the devil’s work. I am trying to help people from doing the devil's work.

You mean, as you are doing to me right now. Be careful how you judge, it is probably the very thing that you are guilty of. I have done nothing wrong by correcting, refuting, and rebuking.

You have falsely judged me, and that is sin.

1 if you are teaching someone that they cannot believe in Jesus, and to wait to see if God saves them, as Calvinists believe...and...
2 If you tell unbelievers that they cannot believe, then again, that could interfere with them knowing the truth and being saved.
I have not even hinted that I believe or teach these things.
3 It does not sound like you are convinced that a person can know the Truth from the scriptures. I disagree with you.
I don't know how I may have communicated this. I do not ask your or any man's approval. I am here to watch, listen and learn. All are quite free to disagree with me. I do not assume that I have arrived and am 100% right on everything , or I would not still be searching for the truth of the Scriptures.
4 You mean, as you are doing to me right now. Be careful how you judge, it is probably the very thing that you are guilty of. I have done nothing wrong by correcting, refuting, and rebuking.
I do not think I mentioned you, or even came close to making statements personally against you. I am sorry you felt attacked. I did not accuse you, or judge you, even indirectly.
5 Be careful how you judge, it is probably the very thing that you are guilty of.
At this time I would direct your statement back to yourself for consideration. If you believe this I suggest it can apply to me, you, anyone.
Again, I thank you for your input.
I have a question or you. What must I do to be saved?

 

[Moriah]

1 if you are teaching someone that they cannot believe in Jesus, and to wait to see if God saves them, as Calvinists believe...and...
2 If you tell unbelievers that they cannot believe, then again, that could interfere with them knowing the truth and being saved.
I have not even hinted that I believe or teach these things.

I was explaining how Calvinists and Arminian beliefs could interfere with someone being saved. You asked.

3 It does not sound like you are convinced that a person can know the Truth from the scriptures. I disagree with you.
I don't know how I may have communicated this. I do not ask your or any man's approval. I am here to watch, listen and learn. All are quite free to disagree with me. I do not assume that I have arrived and am 100% right on everything , or I would not still be searching for the truth of the Scriptures.

You just said, “I don’t know how I may have communicated this.” Then you said, “I do not assume that I have arrived and am 100% right…” I said that you did not sound like you believed a person could know the truth. Again, you admit that at least you do not know for yourself. If you do not think you know the truth, and if you make a post questioning others who believe they know the truth, then how is that NOT communicating you do not believe the truth can be known?

4 You mean, as you are doing to me right now. Be careful how you judge, it is probably the very thing that you are guilty of. I have done nothing wrong by correcting, refuting, and rebuking.
I do not think I mentioned you, or even came close to making statements personally against you. I am sorry you felt attacked. I did not accuse you, or judge you, even indirectly.

I do not know how you can say you did not accuse me. Maybe you were accusing the Calvinists I have debated. Could that be the case?

5 Be careful how you judge, it is probably the very thing that you are guilty of.
At this time I would direct your statement back to yourself for consideration. If you believe this I suggest it can apply to me, you, anyone.

So are you now admitting accusing me? I have only called people accuser of the brethren when they have falsely accused me of sins. You, however, have accused me of being an accuser of the brethren for debating and showing from scripture false doctrines. You must prove first that what I say the Bible says is false, before you can accuse me of such a sin.

I have a question or you. What must I do to be saved?

Get Jesus’ teachings and obey them. See John 14:23.

 

[fortytworc]

I was explaining how Calvinists and Arminian beliefs could interfere with someone being saved. You asked.

You just said, “I don’t know how I may have communicated this.” Then you said, “I do not assume that I have arrived and am 100% right…” I said that you did not sound like you believed a person could know the truth. Again, you admit that at least you do not know for yourself. If you do not think you know the truth, and if you make a post questioning others who believe they know the truth, then how is that NOT communicating you do not believe the truth can be known?

I do not know how you can say you did not accuse me. Maybe you were accusing the Calvinists I have debated. Could that be the case?

So are you now admitting accusing me? I have only called people accuser of the brethren when they have falsely accused me of sins. You, however, have accused me of being an accuser of the brethren for debating and showing from scripture false doctrines. You must prove first that what I say the Bible says is false, before you can accuse me of such a sin.

Get Jesus’ teachings and obey them. See John 14:23.

It was not my intention to accuse , judge, or malign you in any way. I apologize and ask your forgiveness. No personal attack was ever intended.

 

[Moriah]

It was not my intention to accuse , judge, or malign you in any way. I apologize and ask your forgiveness. No personal attack was ever intended.

Thank you for saying this to me.

 

[steaver]

You are right.......Welcome to BB! you will sort out the nuts in no time. They are all protecting they're nuts. :laugh:

:thumbsup: good one! :laugh:

 

[Alive in Christ]

You are also a "Banjo oligist" :laugh:

Absolutly!

The Banjo ROCKS!

and on a serious note, the most influential banjo player of all time died 3 days ago, and was buried today.

Rest in peace, Earl Scruggs

 

[seekingthetruth]

You offer no proof that the Scriptures presented refute Reformed Theology. My bet is that you can't. That, and you're just being blatant. :wavey: :laugh: :love2:

I just did. See post 40.

And yes, i am being very blatant about the false teachings of Reformed Theology, intentionally.

In every case the scripture you use to prove Reformed Theology is misinterpreted by Cals. And in almost every scripture you cite, if you read the whole passage, you would find references to words like "whosoever", "believe", belief, ect.

Which brings us back to the truth:

God "predestined" the establishment of the church. The 'elect" are the saved members of the church. They dont become one of the "elect" until they ask for and recieve salvation. Yes, God has the foreknowledge to know who will choose salvation, but, it is still our choice. After all, God created time so He is not confined by it.

And yes, the HS must minister to a person in order for him to be saved, but the HS dosent deny anyone that seeks Him. And yes, it is our nature to reject the spiritural things of God, and seek the pleasures of the world. But, we are NOT totally inable to go against that nature if we choose to.

There are many who hear the call of the HS and still reject God. Grace is not irresistable, man still has a choice to reject it.

These things are what I was talking about when i said that I am closer to being Reformed than I am Arminian. There is just enough truth in Calvinism to make it sound reasonable to a lot of folks. However, Calvinism takes these truths to such an extreme that they turn truth into false teaching.

Man is still required to make a choice. Preacher, if you were being absolutely honest with yourself, you would have to admit that when you got saved, that you had to make a choice to do so.

John

 

[savedbymercy]

seeking

It is never used to identify any one individual as being 'predestined" by God.

Thats a false statement since individuals comprise the Body of Christ, therefore each member, or individual was predestinated to the conformity of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Cor 12:27

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

The word particular is the greek word meros and means:

one of the constituent parts of a whole