Arminian...Calvinist....Must one decide?

[seekingthetruth]

seeking



Thats a false statement since individuals comprise the Body of Christ, therefore each member, or individual was predestinated to the conformity of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Cor 12:27

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

The word particular is the greek word meros and means:

one of the constituent parts of a whole

Excuse me!!!!!

Those scriptures are not talking about the individual members. They are talking about the establishment of the Church with Christ as the head. Yes, we are the body of Christ, but here it is talking about the Body as a corporate term not an individual one, meaning the Body as a whole, not the parts.

For instance, i can work for General Motors, but when the news anchor is talking about GM he is not talking about me as an individual, he is talking about the company as a whole.

No, I did not make a false statement, and i dont appreciate you implying that I am a liar. Your misinterpretation of scripture does not make me a liar.

State that you disagree with me, and tell me why, and then we can discuss it.....but never, ever call me or another brother a liar, please

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

seeking



Thats a false statement since individuals comprise the Body of Christ, therefore each member, or individual was predestinated to the conformity of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Cor 12:27

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

The word particular is the greek word meros and means:

one of the constituent parts of a whole

I found this commentary on Romans 8. I agree with this because it is simply affirming what Paul is stating here:

"For whom he foreknew, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. To foreknow and to predestinate are not the same thing. One is an act of foreknowledge, or knowing something before it occurs; the other is to decree something. We only have knowledge of the past, but God foresees the future even as he sees the past; foresees it, not because he has decreed it, but because there are no limitations on his knowledge. Augustine says: "There can be no predestination without foreknowledge; but there can be foreknowledge without predestination." Whom does God foreknow? Those who shall love God. As he looked into the future these were present to his mind; foreknown. What did he predestinate of them? Not that they should love God. Not that they should believe; nor that some should be saved and others damned; but that those who he saw beforehand would love God, should be conformed to the image of his Son. The only thing predestinated, or foreordained, is that those who love God as revealed in Christ shall become Christlike in life, and like Christ in eternity. This is the only decree in the passage.
Whom he predestinated. He now shows how this is accomplished for those thus foreknown as the lovers of God.

He also called. They are "called" by the preaching of the gospel, as in 2Th_2:14 : "Whereunto he called you by our gospel." It is not stated that these alone are called. We know that many others are called.

Justified. The called, accepting the call, are justified. Their sins are blotted out."

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

seeking



Thats a false statement since individuals comprise the Body of Christ, therefore each member, or individual was predestinated to the conformity of Christ Rom 8:29

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

1 Cor 12:27

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

The word particular is the greek word meros and means:

one of the constituent parts of a whole

This is why I have such a problem with Cals.

First, they misinterpret scripture.

Then, they try to force feed their doctrines to regular christians.

Then, instead of having a civil debate, they call the regular christian a liar when they respond with biblical truth.

If you Cals are really correct in your doctrine, and truly have God on your side????? Then why are you so mean, nasty, aggressive and defensive?

Could it be that Calvinism is directly related to mental illness?

John

 

[The Biblicist]

This is why I have such a problem with Cals.

First, they misinterpret scripture.

Then, they try to force feed their doctrines to regular christians.

Then, instead of having a civil debate, they call the regular christian a liar when they respond with biblical truth.

If you Cals are really correct in your doctrine, and truly have God on your side????? Then why are you so mean, nasty, aggressive and defensive?

Could it be that Calvinism is directly related to mental illness?

John

John,

1 Corinthians 12:27 is the concrete application to the particular congregation at Corinth ("ye" not "we") of the abstract teaching of 1 Cor. 12:12-26. Hence, the application is to the local visible assembly while the abstract teaching is simply that abstract.

I certainly do not agree with SGM and his weird interpretations (extreme Calvinism) but you are missing one vital point in your interpretation of Romans 8:28-30.

Foreknowledge in context is based upon "according to His purpose" in verse 28. Indeed, every aspect in verses 29-30 is the outcome of "according to His purpose.

The correct analogy is that of an builder who has a blue print (purpose/plan - v. 28) that he builds everything according to the specs of that plan. He foreknows where every door, window, light socket is to be not because he looks down into the future but because he "works all things.....according to His purpose" just as a builder knows every detail before he builds the house because it is by design found "according to His purpose." He then proceeds to build it as "PRE-determined" so that it is "conformed" to its purposed design - the image of Christ.

The "purpose" of this context is God's redemptive purpose. The only reason you can rationalize this verse as you do (and as the commentator did you used) is because you ignore the foundational contextual basis in verse 28 that God is working "all things.....according to his purpose" not according to prescience! Foreknowledge is based upon Purpose not the purposes of sinful creatures that God must foresee and change his own plans to accomodate. That is how you are presenting God as one who is a CONFORMIST to the designs of sinful men rather than the Sovereign who works "all things...according to His purpose."

If your interpretation were correct then verse 28 should read that God "works all things....according to his prescience of what others have purposed."

 

[seekingthetruth]

John,

1 Corinthians 12:27 is the concrete application to the particular congregation at Corinth ("ye" not "we") of the abstract teaching of 1 Cor. 12:12-26. Hence, the application is to the local visible assembly while the abstract teaching is simply that abstract.

I certainly do not agree with SGM and his weird interpretations (extreme Calvinism) but you are missing one vital point in your interpretation of Romans 8:28-30.

Foreknowledge in context is based upon "according to His purpose" in verse 28. Indeed, every aspect in verses 29-30 is the outcome of "according to His purpose.

The correct analogy is that of an builder who has a blue print (purpose/plan - v. 28) that he builds everything according to the specs of that plan. He foreknows where every door, window, light socket is to be not because he looks down into the future but because he "works all things.....according to His purpose" just as a builder knows every detail before he builds the house because it is by design found "according to His purpose." He then proceeds to build it as "PRE-determined" so that it is "conformed" to its purposed design - the image of Christ.

The "purpose" of this context is God's redemptive purpose. The only reason you can rationalize this verse as you do (and as the commentator did you used) is because you ignore the foundational contextual basis in verse 28 that God is working "all things.....according to his purpose" not according to prescience! Foreknowledge is based upon Purpose not the purposes of sinful creatures that God must foresee and change his own plans to accomodate. That is how you are presenting God as one who is a CONFORMIST to the designs of sinful men rather than the Sovereign who works "all things...according to His purpose."

If your interpretation were correct then verse 28 should read that God "works all things....according to his prescience of what others have purposed."

First of all, thank you for your very civil debate.

But, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of this scripture:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Paul is giving comfort and encouragement to Christians (and christians only). No matter what terrible things may be going on, God's will will prevail in the end. We know Paul is only talking about Christians because he says "to them that love God,". He clarifies it more by defining those that love God as " them who are the called according to his purpose."

Paul then defines God's purpose for those that love Him in verse 29, "to be conformed to the image of his Son, ".

Basically, all Paul is doing here is assuring Christians that God does not abandon them in times of trouble, and that His divine purpose for them is to be "conformed to the image of His Son"

There is absolutely no part of this that suggests God chooses whom He wants to and rejects others.

The main point of how we interpret this passage depends on who we define as "the called".

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

God first called the Jew, and lastly, the gentile. He called many but few accepted the call. It needs to be pointed out here that God does indeed call more than we will see in heaven. This scripture disproves the theory of "irresistable Grace" and "unconditional election". And it does prove that we have a choice to make.

In Rom 8: 28 above, Paul is addressing those that "love God", and further, they are defined as those that have answered the call of the gospel.

2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are "called" by the gospel, not by predestination.

So, IMHO, the "called" in Rom 8:28 are the Christians that heard the gospel, and answered the call to it. And in verse 29, God predstinated, (or decreed) that those that answered the call would be conformed in to the image of Christ, starting here on Earth through sanctification, and completed in heaven.

That is God's purpose as stated in verse 28.

John

 

[billwald]

It should be absolutely NOT important for anyone who trusts God to do what is right but it is amusing to argue about for those of us who have to much free time to kill..

 

[savedbymercy]

seeking

Excuse me!!!!!

You made a false statement. And I showed you how, it does not matter if you do not agree with it. Each Individual of the Body of Christ has been predestinated unto conformity of Christ ! Some of those members of that One Body were born 1600's some in 1700's some in 1800's and so forth !