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Arminianism and Calvinism part 2
- Thread starter MennoSota
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LAS VEGAS, NV—Local Arminian believer Jacob Riley was reportedly seen at a taping of the History Channel’s hit show “Pawn Stars” Monday morning, pawning his salvation for a mere $13.
The Christian haggled with pawn shop owner Rick Harrison for several minutes, going back and forth over the value of his eternal salvation.
“I don’t know too much about eternal security, but I’ve got a buddy who’s an expert in this kind of thing,” Harrison told Riley before calling in a local Calvary Chapel pastor to examine the work of salvation wrought in eternity past, who looked over the man’s salvation and concluded it was priceless, leaving Harrison and Riley to negotiate over the details.
Arminian Pawns Salvation For $13 On 'Pawn Stars'
Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.
Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.
Okay
Now. How does a synergist reconcile God stating that "No one seeks after God, not even one."
...can't answer for a synergist cause I ain't one....
Kyredneck true to his spiritual nature... I ain't one!... I'll use that... I ain't one either!... Brother Glen
But as a Monergist the answer is simple, those that seek after God ARE regenerate. The 'heart change' can occur long before actual conversion, even in the womb if you consider John the Baptist.
So, the millions and tens of millions of folks that go to Catholic mass, Lutheran churches, Methodists, etc. are really regenerated and are waiting for God to change their heart and zap them with faith?
So true... This has always been my motto... From the cradle to the grave HE WILL SAVE!... Brother Glen
SheepWhisperer
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Correct, all sinners are dead, the Bible says. They're dead in trespasses and in sins and because the don't have the Spirit of God living in them. But the Bible says that "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God". That fact was illustrated and demonstrated one day when Jesus cried "LAZARUS, COME FORTH!!!!". That, my friend was the very same "powerful and majestic" Voice of Psalm 29. God's Voice is so infinitely powerful that the dead can hear it.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
ITL can you rephrase the question? It's incoherent to me the way it is because the 'heart change' IS 'regeneration'.
Example:
6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5
The heart that hungers for righteousness is NOT the heart of the natural man, and there's not a doubt in my mind that there's "millions and tens of millions" of those Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. that have that very heart.
Surely you're not implying that only Baptists are going to heaven?
No, I'm not saying only Baptists are saved. I'm saying that millions and millions of people are seeking God, the God of the Bible, the one and only true God. It is inescapably true that they are seeking God. These people are attending Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist churches, etc. Most of them are not true believers (Matt 7:13, Matt 7:21).
How do you reconcile that with Romans 3:11 (which is quoting Psalm 14:2), which states that no one seeks God?
Are they all regenerated, but not yet of the elect?
Lol, that's certainly the way you're coming across.
And again, this is not indicative of the natural man.
OK, you've finally included Baptists...
...and you know this how?
Do these passages apply more to non-Baptists than they do Baptists?
See post #27.
To me this is reversed. All the elect from before the foundation of the world will be regenerated in this time realm. Doesn't matter if they're born into Catholicism, Methodism, bigoted Baptists, atheism, paganism, Mohammadism, deepest darkest part of Africa, deaf & blind, mental retards, etc., Christ the life-giving Spirit will find them:
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT
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Yes his own own sheep shall hear His voice and receive him and eternal life, while the rest stay deaf and dumb!
Matthew 18
12“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? 13“If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.14“So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.
The dead only hear the voice of God. They don't choose to accept it or reject it. When God speaks so the dead hear, it means God has made them alive in Christ.
Lazarus had no choice. Jesus called his name and said "come forth" and that is exactly what happened.
Perhaps you did not realize you were presenting a biblical, Calvinist, position, but you did.
People doing religious things are not necessarily seeking the biblical God.
Many go to appease their consciences.
Remember the vision in ezk8 where he sees what is going on behind the scenes of the religious facade.
Red, how about picking an English bible translation next time. [emoji6] [emoji57] [emoji41] [emoji33]Lol, that's certainly the way you're coming across.
And again, this is not indicative of the natural man.
OK, you've finally included Baptists...
...and you know this how?
Do these passages apply more to non-Baptists than they do Baptists?
See post #27.
To me this is reversed. All the elect from before the foundation of the world will be regenerated in this time realm. Doesn't matter if they're born into Catholicism, Methodism, bigoted Baptists, atheism, paganism, Mohammadism, deepest darkest part of Africa, deaf & blind, mental retards, etc., Christ the life-giving Spirit will find them:
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT
The unsaved always make their own graven Images to worship and bow down to, but they are not looking to find the real God!
What is it you don't like? Born from above? Prefer 'born again' or 'born anew'? I believe the literal rendering 'born from above' correctly conveys the real sense of the heavenly birth as in:
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4
...or:
13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1: YLT
if ye know that he is righteous, know ye that every one doing the righteousness, of him hath been begotten. 1 Jn 2:29 YLT
9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten. 1 Jn 3:9 YLT
7 Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God 1 Jn 4:7 YLT
1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him
4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world -- our faith
18 We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him 1 Jn 5 YLT
'Born from above' correctly implies that man is totally passive in it. 'Born again' or 'born anew' provides wiggle room to the free willers to lay claim of taking part in it. Besides, John always uses 'anothen' to mean 'above', or 'from the top'.
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