None. Once again you are trying to derail a discussion so those who wish to discuss it cannot do so. Offer something of substance, on topic, or I will delete your posts. Enough is enough!
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Arminianism and Calvinism part 2
- Thread starter MennoSota
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Sure. In some places thieves get their hands chopped off. That doesn't mean they deserve it.
What a person DESERVES that is your evil judgement projected on God.
Now show me the verse where God declares everyone deserves hell himself.
Your graven image does not exist in the bible.
Claiming that anyone here believe works for salvation carries as much substance.
I've been asked several times if these people attending church are really seeking God, the real God, the God of the Bible, and I've answered yes. Yet, still I get, "are you sure?" And, "is that really seeking?" And, "is that really God?"
I am trying to discuss things but I keep running into people attempting to refine terms of the argument.
Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
I will try to explain what I mean by "He offers it as irresistible." He offers grace and mandates the person He offers it to accept it. He does not give them the ability to refuse the offer of Grace.It seems to me they are.
All that He draws come.
I agree.
I am not sure what you mean by "He offers that grace as irresistable." His Grace is sufficient. His Grace never fails (as you stated above). I have no idea what you mean by "He offers that grace as irresistable." His Grace is His Grace. If it fails to accomplish that which He intended it to accomplish either He is not God or His Grace is not His Grace.
Sorry, but you are not making any sense. What do you mean by "He offers it as irresistable." What is not efficacious about efficacious Grace?
That is why I am trying to help.
I asked you a couple questions several posts ago, whether you were a pastor and if you are seminary trained. You did not answer either question. The questions were not merely out of curiosity. The answers would affect how I answer your questions.
On a side note, I am again studying the Westminster Confession. I had found in some of my old materials that Dr. D. James Kennedy had said the Westminister confession accurately, completely, and simply explains reformed theology. It definitely lays the points out in a different way than many modern explanations of Calvinism. It does not sugar coat anything. I am not at the point of saying I agree with the Westminster Confession, but I will say it does not contain anything that does not contain a strong weight of scriptural support.
Is their anything in the parts of it dealing with salvation that you recall blatantly disagreeing with? I remember you saying you were not a Calvinist, but I forgot the name you identified as. What would be the difference between what you believe and Calvinism?
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How many words and phrases are in the Bible? [emoji41]
Where's the verse where God talks about the pope?
What does the verse "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory God" mean in your little world?
Not redefing. Just saying your definition is wrong.
Sorry to take so long to respond in detail on this....
I was raised catholic....I made my first holy communion,I made my confirmation, I ate the Eucharist,...I said prayers ,our Father and Hail Mary's....but I was lost in sin completely.
Now while I am glad they learn true facts, trinity, virgin birth,...keep in mind, they are born into it, like a Mormon is born into that cult, or a muslim in that cult.
I pray that God will save some there despite the churches false ideas, works gospel, and everything else.
like I indicated...they have been taught true facts about the trinity, but unless and until they are saving drawn by the Spirit out of that church they are in danger, trying to earn their way to heaven, which is not seeking God on His terms.
They believe they are "born again" by sprinkling an infant...
I suspect you may have a misunderstanding of Grace. Grace is unmerited favor. There is nothing you need do, or can do, to merit Grace, including accepting it. Grace is unmerited favor.
I am not Reformed so I do not accept the Reformed confessions as a doctrinal base. I am a Particular Baptist. I believe in the Particular atonement as opposed as a General atonement. That is, Christ actually saved me on the cross, and did not just make it possible for me to add something to his finished work that would result in my salvation (my faith, my repentance, my obedience, my sinners prayer, my walking the aisle, etc.).
My agreements and disagreements with the WC are irrelevant. The WC is not the bible, which is my sole authority in all matters of faith and practice.
I disagree with Calvin's ecclesiology, historical theology, pneumatology, and his eschatology.
Acts 20
28“Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory God"
Means everyone is a sinner.
Ecclesiastes 7
20Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.
Even if it says in the book of menno 1: Everyone who sins is going to hell.
Even if the above is accepted as completely true. It does not declare or state that God has stated "all mankind DESERVES to go to hell"
This issue should have been a piece of cake find a verse where God himself says "ALL MANKIND DESERVES HELL"
1000s of verses that say men misbehave. or even 1000s of verses that say all men do go to hell, does not convey your personal declaration that "ALL MEN DESERVE HELL".
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Then you have a very low view of sin. Sin is rebellion against God; it is cosmic treason. Treasonous rebellion against a holy God is--ipso facto--deserving of death and hell.
If all men don't deserve hell for their sin, why, then, Christ? Seriously. If Mankind isn't all that bad, why did Christ have to come to live the life we couldn't live (a life of no rebellion, no treason against God) and die the death we deserve to die?
The Archangel
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
John staqted that those who reject Jesus to save them are RIGHT NOW already standing condemned, do you believe this?
All these are addressed to God's covenant ppl, not all mankind w/o exception.
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I just laugh when a person demands that the Bible declare something word for word as they dictate.
Anyone who doesn't see that God does not tolerate sin in his Kingdom and in fact throws sinners into the pit (hell) is just sticking his head in the sand and covering his ears while yelling "show me, show me, show me!"
Anyone who doesn't see that God does not tolerate sin in his Kingdom and in fact throws sinners into the pit (hell) is just sticking his head in the sand and covering his ears while yelling "show me, show me, show me!"
If for a minute mankind deserved hell you would already be there at the moment sin is present. God gave his declaration in the WORD that is Jesus Christ who did not come to condemn the world.
Answer Christ:
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?
If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you?
The above is God's standard.
27“But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
You are sinning right now according to Jesus:
37“Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.
Judged and condemn? you already judged and condemned all mankind to deserve hell.
You have no place to make any judgement, You cannot make the call of what people "deserve".
Jesus Christ has made the declaration of what people deserve: PARDON.
I got holy scripture and I am showing it to you. It is a sin to judge and condemn others.
The correct standard of what a person "DESERVES" is God almighty:
35“But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. 36“Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
You want me to sin against God and judge and condemn you as deserving hell? No you don't deserve hell. You deserve kindness and you deserve mercy.
A sinner can certainly go to hell but to say "THEY DESERVE IT" You have no rights to that judgement call.
Judge not, and do not condemn, can it be said any clearer?
Calv1
Active Member
You must not read the bible, a verse you say? How about two, there are many.
Romans 3:10:11 "as it is written, there is no one that is righteous, no not ONE, there is N
NE who understands, NNE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD, ALL have turned away, they have become altogether worthless...Now if N
NE IS GOOD, NO NOT EVEN ONE, and the REQUIREMENT for Heaven is perfect righteousness (The Reason our Savior came, to live a perfect life for us), then we all deserve Hell, for we sure aren't going to Heaven UNLESS something happens, and that is an act of grace.Romans 5:12 "just as sin entered the world through one man, and DEATH FROM SIN, and in this way death came to all people, for ALL HAVE SINNED".
Why does every human die? It's a JUDGEMENT FOR SIN. Unless your perfect and live forever, you are under God's curse. Once again there is only one solution, a substitute to SAVE US FROM HELL, Jesus is our Savior HOW? To teach us a good life? No, He came to save the elect from Hell.
This is the most basic Sunday School 101 topics. To my brothers out there my heart goes out to you, you have great patience putting up with this.
Calv1
Active Member
The Westminister divines were fantastic. Remember at that time, in order to qualify for graduate school in Theology, you didn't have to just know Greek, you had to be able to DEBATE IN GREEK. Doctor of Theology was the highest degree you could get, it would be like "Doctor of Neurosurgery" today.
I encourage you to study the London Baptist Confession of 1689, and the Heidelberg Confession, all are wonderful. In the Heidelberg they go through the ten commandments, it's really cool, they show the extent of those sins, trust me after you read that you'll say "Man, I sin, break the ten commandments every day, never knew that", at least I did when I read it.
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