Arminianism and Calvinism part 2

[Mr. Davis]

utilyan,

You say you are a Christian. I extended YOU an OLIVE BRANCH at the end of my last post--What did YOU do in RETURN? Judged and condemned me: you DON'T follow Christ: HE said NOT to do that.TRUTH must prevail over YOUR OPINIONS!


How does a Believer KNOW that he is ELECT? From God's PROMISES in John 1, Romans 8, and Ephesians 1. Those He CALLED are His Children. From Spiritual DEATH (which I am afraid YOU REMAIN IN) to the New Birth (Regeneration) and then to Faith, He does it ALL. Those that RECEIVE Him have been given the desire and enablement by God to do so. (The Arminian trys to MERIT salvation.) Those that RECEIVE Him are the Children of God (John 1) foreknown and predestined from Eternity Past. (Romans 8, Ephesians 1)


Calvinist and Arminian are not in the Bible. But they describe sets of teachings men have drawn from the Scriptures. Just as the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, men have developed a set of teachings from the Bible that define the word.


What I have said here is NOT for you utilyan. Your heart is as hardened as the Scribes and Pharisees. And Christ said they would face a firey judgment! It is to expose YOU as a FALSE Christian and to convince those with an open mind of God's Great Mercy and Grace in Salvation. Some abuse God's Grace and sin. But Christ said, "he that comes to me I shall in nowise cast out." We can come to Him ONLY as He has enabled us to do so. We are NOT saved by OUR faithfulness, but by His ALONE, on the Cross of Calvary.

 

[utilyan]

utilyan,

You say you are a Christian. I extended YOU an OLIVE BRANCH at the end of my last post--What did YOU do in RETURN? Judged and condemned me: you DON'T follow Christ: HE said NOT to do that.TRUTH must prevail over YOUR OPINIONS!


How does a Believer KNOW that he is ELECT? From God's PROMISES in John 1, Romans 8, and Ephesians 1. Those He CALLED are His Children. From Spiritual DEATH (which I am afraid YOU REMAIN IN) to the New Birth (Regeneration) and then to Faith, He does it ALL. Those that RECEIVE Him have been given the desire and enablement by God to do so. (The Arminian trys to MERIT salvation.) Those that RECEIVE Him are the Children of God (John 1) foreknown and predestined from Eternity Past. (Romans 8, Ephesians 1)


Calvinist and Arminian are not in the Bible. But they describe sets of teachings men have drawn from the Scriptures. Just as the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, men have developed a set of teachings from the Bible that define the word.


What I have said here is NOT for you utilyan. Your heart is as hardened as the Scribes and Pharisees. And Christ said they would face a firey judgment! It is to expose YOU as a FALSE Christian and to convince those with an open mind of God's Great Mercy and Grace in Salvation. Some abuse God's Grace and sin. But Christ said, "he that comes to me I shall in nowise cast out." We can come to Him ONLY as He has enabled us to do so. We are NOT saved by OUR faithfulness, but by His ALONE, on the Cross of Calvary.

You extended an olive branch by accusing me of works salvation? I'm not an Armenian, Your calvinist system has you believe there are only two options in everything it teaches.


I said HOW DO YOU know you are elect? YOU DAVIS.


You finished with claiming I am not elect, How do you know that?

 

[annsni]

Calvinist Response: Jesus is a Liar, Mankind is worthless even deserves hell.

Wow. You call God a liar in this because Scripture tells us clearly that mankind deserves hell. "For ALL have sinned" says quite a bit don't you think? What are the wages of sin? Death. The Scriptures are very clear that mankind DOES deserve hell because of his sinfulness. BUT GOD......

 

[Reformed]

Actually, most don't have a clue. They just believe they felt "convicted" so decided to ask Jesus into their heart... (barf).

Armenianism- salvation that includes too many "I's"


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Armenianism? Watch out for those Armenians. Especially Arminian Armenians.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Mr. Davis]

This challenge is to Arminians (not those who claim otherwise). utilyan claims otherwise.

Is it fair to say that you believe salvation is not something God does alone?

If not, how do you merit salvation? It is either something God does or you do.

It is not God, plus you, because only God gets the glory.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

They are seeking God. And not any God, but the one true God of the Bible. This contradicts the Calvinist assertion that "no one seeks God."

It's not a Calvinist assertion, it's what the Bible teaches.

Romans 3:10-17New International Version (NIV)

10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

If you were totally depraved there would be nothing there to save and as likely to be save as a rock


If you were totally depraved as so deserving hell there would be nothing there to save and as likely to be save as a rock or chunk of mud.

All you had to do is find a verse where God says all mankind deserve hell. You have failed. And thank you for conceding earlier that verse DOES NOT EXIST.

We don't need unbiblical lies.

It seems you don't understand the scriptures.


Romans 5:12English Standard Version (ESV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—



Genesis 6:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.



Psalm 51:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.



Psalm 58:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.



Ecclesiastes 9:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.



Jeremiah 17:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?



Romans 3:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”



Isaiah 53:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.



Proverbs 14:12English Standard Version (ESV)

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

John 8:43English Standard Version (ESV)

43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.



John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 8:7English Standard Version (ESV)

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

 

[utilyan]

Wow. You call God a liar in this because Scripture tells us clearly that mankind deserves hell. "For ALL have sinned" says quite a bit don't you think? What are the wages of sin? Death. The Scriptures are very clear that mankind DOES deserve hell because of his sinfulness. BUT GOD......

Indeed Scripture is very clear NO VERSE WRITTEN. God has never declared himself "all mankind deserve hell".

You are reading into the text and trying to fill the spaces between the lines.

The majority of Christians agree with me.


Saying you deserve Hell is a Sin in itself because going to Hell is a sin.

You keep splitting sin from the consequence of sin like some perk and payment.


Who are you to judge and call others wicked?



Romans 14
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

11For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”

12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.


The above is LESS then saying they deserve hell.


There is NO heavier judgment then saying someone else deserves hell.



What you do is a sin. Jesus commands Judge not.

Mathew 7

1“Do not judge so that you will not be judged.


There is no worst judgement that you can pass on anyone then they deserving hell.


Just try to name one evil judgement. Show me one example of evil judgement.

It does not hold a candle vs you judging them to deserve hell.

 

[utilyan]

It seems you don't understand the scriptures.


Romans 5:12English Standard Version (ESV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—



Genesis 6:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.



Psalm 51:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.



Psalm 58:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.



Ecclesiastes 9:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.



Jeremiah 17:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?



Romans 3:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”



Isaiah 53:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.



Proverbs 14:12English Standard Version (ESV)

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

John 8:43English Standard Version (ESV)

43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.



John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.



Romans 8:7English Standard Version (ESV)

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

Everyone here including yourself can claim you deserve hell, We Christians however are told not to pass judgement.

I am not allowed to say you deserve to pay me 5 bucks, or that you deserve a slap on the wrist or even deserve a spanking let alone to say you deserve hell.


James 4

11Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?


If I see you steal something we can judge and say well that is a sin and an act of evil. But I start with well you deserve to have your hand cut off, head cut off or worst, you deserve to go to hell, that is a sin.

A woman was thought to deserve stoning, less then hell. And Jesus stops it and not only he declares there is no one there to condemn, the condemners are gone.

Hey let the one of you who is without sin throw that spiritual stone and declare anyone deserves hell.

It is not our call to make, that is reserved to God almighty.

 

[MennoSota]

Utilyan, what verses, that Katrina shared, do you not understand?

 

[Rippon]

Everyone here including yourself can claim you deserve hell, We Christians however are told not to pass judgement.

That's one of the most absurd things I have heard on the BB. (And that's saying something.)

It is both silly and sad at the same time.

Are all people sinners? Yes or no? Would even one sin be worthy of God's Judgement? Yes or no?

 

[Mr. Davis]

Why are you still in this thread, utilyan? I rebuked you and you went away! You have said that you are neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist. This is a debate forum for them. Are you really that ignorant? All of your arguments were refuted by many posters. It's a real shame. You don't have the self-control to ignore new posts that criticize what you have said. You have nothing new to say! (My challenge is to real Arminians). Go somewhere else! Find a place where you'd really feel at home.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Indeed Scripture is very clear NO VERSE WRITTEN. God has never declared himself "all mankind deserve hell".

You are reading into the text and trying to fill the spaces between the lines.

The majority of Christians agree with me.


Saying you deserve Hell is a Sin in itself because going to Hell is a sin.

You keep splitting sin from the consequence of sin like some perk and payment.


Who are you to judge and call others wicked?



Romans 14
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

11For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”

12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.


The above is LESS then saying they deserve hell.


There is NO heavier judgment then saying someone else deserves hell.



What you do is a sin. Jesus commands Judge not.

Mathew 7

1“Do not judge so that you will not be judged.


There is no worst judgement that you can pass on anyone then they deserving hell.


Just try to name one evil judgement. Show me one example of evil judgement.

It does not hold a candle vs you judging them to deserve hell.

Two can play this game. You have never provided a single verse that says free will is part of salvation. You never will.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Everyone here including yourself can claim you deserve hell, We Christians however are told not to pass judgement.

I am not allowed to say you deserve to pay me 5 bucks, or that you deserve a slap on the wrist or even deserve a spanking let alone to say you deserve hell.


James 4

11Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it. 12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?


If I see you steal something we can judge and say well that is a sin and an act of evil. But I start with well you deserve to have your hand cut off, head cut off or worst, you deserve to go to hell, that is a sin.

A woman was thought to deserve stoning, less then hell. And Jesus stops it and not only he declares there is no one there to condemn, the condemners are gone.

Hey let the one of you who is without sin throw that spiritual stone and declare anyone deserves hell.

It is not our call to make, that is reserved to God almighty.

You prove my point. Jesus knew the heart of the woman, you do not.

Here is what Jesus said in Matthew 7.

7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.

This requires us to make a judgment.

At this point, I don't consider you my brother. You may indeed be one, but I have never seen any kind of statement regarding salvation other than heresies. Somewhere I got the idea that you are a Catholic. I am more tolerant than most. It's possible you are saved.

If you are my brother, then you should be able to verbalize it.

Titus 3:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

This requires judgment.

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Utilyan, what verses, that Katrina shared, do you not understand?

I predict that he/she never will address them. People don't want to address scripture that does not support their view.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

First let's understand that, the phrase "free will" isn't in the Bible; just like "sovereignty", "limited atonement" and "unconditional election" aren't. Next. let's agree on what "free will" means.........

free will
noun
1.
free and independent choice; voluntary decision:
You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2.
Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Do we both agree on the definition? There are too many scriptures in which people made "free and independent choices" aka "voluntary decsions" to do things like put off salvation "for a convenient season" to "resist the Holy Ghost" as well as to obey, repent and believe. Just like the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible,"free will"isn't either, but the fact remains, it's there.

 

[Reformed]

First let's understand that, the phrase "free will" isn't in the Bible; just like "sovereignty", "limited atonement" and "unconditional election" aren't. Next. let's agree on what "free will" means.........

free will
noun
1.
free and independent choice; voluntary decision:
You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2.
Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

Do we both agree on the definition? There are too many scriptures in which people made "free and independent choices" aka "voluntary decsions" to do things like put off salvation "for a convenient season" to "resist the Holy Ghost" as well as to obey, repent and believe. Just like the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible,"free will"isn't either, but the fact remains, it's there.

Your example has some gaping holes, namely that you say free will is not in the Bible, yet you claim it is there. However, you dismiss God's sovereignty, definite atonement, and unconditional election without giving them the same special treatment you give free will. Lastly, making an end-of-discussion pronouncement such as "but the fact remains it's there" is a poor debate tactic. You have not proven your point. In short, your response undermines your conclusion. I suggest you go back and rethink your response.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Katarina,

Here is my reply to Shai Linne about Universal Atonement. I picked this up from administrator TCassidy. Mankind's sins have been atoned for in generaI. But the elect's sins have been atoned for specifically, or effectually. This is also called particular redemption. The alternative is Universalism. This is where the Atonement is construed to cover all beings, good and evil. Even Satan receives a pardon.

 

[MennoSota]

Mankind's sins have been atoned for in generaI.

Explain how atonement can be general and not effective.

Is it like a perfume that has no smell?

 

[utilyan]

Two can play this game. You have never provided a single verse that says free will is part of salvation. You never will.

Bit of a strawman.....

That's easy.

29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’


You have to love God, forced or done for you is not love at all.


I consider all of you brothers and sisters.




I'm not factious <-- never left any faith, All for unity.



15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.


I know God is your father who loves you and you will always have a Father in heaven.

The video you shared about Catholics, I wouldn't even agree to those things, makes me want to walk outside and throw a tomato at myself. It was a gross misrepresentation.

I don't need a misrepresentation to disagree with you. I don't need any vilifying painting to disagree. All I have to do is learn exactly what you say you believe, exactly how you say it.

If A = B and B=C you will get a challenged that A = C. Example folks say everyone is totally depraved, then a moment later claim their hearts get hardened, Then you get a challenge from me If someone is totally depraved there couldn't possibly be anything there to harden being that it began totally harden.




"Titus 3:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)

9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

This requires judgment."

No he even tells you, they are self-condemned.

I recommend looking up that word "factious" Its the person quick to cut ties, quick to enter combativeness, they always say its US vs THEM. My attitude is its us for us. If I disliked any of you I wouldn't be here.


I say AMEN to all the scripture you quoted. Not one of them gives me the right to judge you deserving hell, not even deserving lesser suffering.

1 John 4

18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

To Judge as in Discernment, thats fine, or even if a person comes to the humility of repentance to the point they believe themselves deserving hell, thats a good imperfect start. But to lay claim to the FINAL judgement which is God's alone overriding and going over God's head as to set the "standard" of who deserves what of who even deserves to be born, deserves to exist, deserves hell. That is a power absolute opinionated word: "DESERVES"

Let me tell you anyone who "DESERVES" hell doesn't "DESERVE" the right to say who "DESERVES" What or NOT!

That is a Judgement on your soul. Reserved to God alone.

You want me to believe YOU deserve hell? Not even if the whole world hates you, Not even if you slaughtered everyone I loved.

Don' be selfish thinking about yourself.

Jesus Christ deserves more glory why deny him one more voice. Does Jesus deserve less folks in heaven? One less "thank you"? One less family? One more reminder of hatred or one more of love?


You don't have the grounds to make the judgement call. This condemnation of other is simply shooting yourself in the foot.

Its like if someone swears they don't deserve to have a head how come they still believe I deserve to hear them run their mouth? Isn't the mouth gone along with the head?