Putting words in my mouth again, I see.
Appealing to a strawman, I see.
Ignoring the second half of verse 27, I see.
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Arminianism and Calvinism part 2
- Thread starter MennoSota
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Appealing to a strawman, I see.
Ignoring the second half of verse 27, I see.
Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Bit of a strawman.....
That's easy.
29Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; 30AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.’
You have to love God, forced or done for you is not love at all.
I consider all of you brothers and sisters.
I'm not factious <-- never left any faith, All for unity.
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
I know God is your father who loves you and you will always have a Father in heaven.
The video you shared about Catholics, I wouldn't even agree to those things, makes me want to walk outside and throw a tomato at myself. It was a gross misrepresentation.
I don't need a misrepresentation to disagree with you. I don't need any vilifying painting to disagree. All I have to do is learn exactly what you say you believe, exactly how you say it.
If A = B and B=C you will get a challenged that A = C. Example folks say everyone is totally depraved, then a moment later claim their hearts get hardened, Then you get a challenge from me If someone is totally depraved there couldn't possibly be anything there to harden being that it began totally harden.
"Titus 3:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11 knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.
This requires judgment."
No he even tells you, they are self-condemned.
I recommend looking up that word "factious" Its the person quick to cut ties, quick to enter combativeness, they always say its US vs THEM. My attitude is its us for us. If I disliked any of you I wouldn't be here.
I say AMEN to all the scripture you quoted. Not one of them gives me the right to judge you deserving hell, not even deserving lesser suffering.
1 John 4
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
To Judge as in Discernment, thats fine, or even if a person comes to the humility of repentance to the point they believe themselves deserving hell, thats a good imperfect start. But to lay claim to the FINAL judgement which is God's alone overriding and going over God's head as to set the "standard" of who deserves what of who even deserves to be born, deserves to exist, deserves hell. That is a power absolute opinionated word: "DESERVES"
Let me tell you anyone who "DESERVES" hell doesn't "DESERVE" the right to say who "DESERVES" What or NOT!
That is a Judgement on your soul. Reserved to God alone.
You want me to believe YOU deserve hell? Not even if the whole world hates you, Not even if you slaughtered everyone I loved.
Don' be selfish thinking about yourself.
Jesus Christ deserves more glory why deny him one more voice. Does Jesus deserve less folks in heaven? One less "thank you"? One less family? One more reminder of hatred or one more of love?
You don't have the grounds to make the judgement call. This condemnation of other is simply shooting yourself in the foot.
Its like if someone swears they don't deserve to have a head how come they still believe I deserve to hear them run their mouth? Isn't the mouth gone along with the head?
Quoting the Shema, is not making an argument. Using BIG letters only emphasize that your argument is bankrupt.
The Bible teaches that the non-elect perish. There is no purgatory or holding pen for sinners. Catholics have it absolutely wrong. I'm looking forward to the 500th anniversary of the 95 thesis this year.
So here is where I am now. Every time you make an accusation towards me or anyone else, I will challenge you to prove it from scripture. Not what you think the scripture says.
Yes, It would be useful.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
So, you think that Paul is a schizophrenic? Why did you post verse 26 without meaning?
I'm not fond of cherry picking verses.
Ephesians 1English Standard Version (ESV)
Greeting
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
It's clear that Paul is speaking from every tribe, tongue and nation.
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I'll watch your video later. We believe the only folks in heaven are the elect.
A rose by any other name is still a rose. Can you sin in heaven?
There is no sinning or evil in heaven. And nothing impure can enter heaven.
Before you enter heaven you will be purified, cleansed and purged from all evil.
Revelations 20
27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
The key point is your going to stop sinning BEFORE you enter heaven. You are not going to be unclean.
The time and place is purgatory. If it happens at McDonald's while you order a cheeseburger, well that is purgatory.
Just admitting you will be given a glorified body......that's purgatory.
Tell me you will sin in heaven and you got me beat and purgatory is false.
But tell me you will not sin in heaven.......by whatever means, the word purgatory is just a word like rose, whatever word you want to give that particular means and time by which you finally cease sinning and are pure, I'll be just as happy to use that word. It is what it is.
Think of it as when regeneration finishes and you have been cured. Give me a word for that Time and Place. Ill just use the word purgatory till you make your own word.
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Well thats good news because I always thought the reason I sinned was because it was my fault.
No one but Calvinist define FREE WILL that way.
Would you feel obligated to follow "theological" vocabulary where "ALL" means monkeys, "WORLD" means chickens, and "Free Will" means potatoes?
Calvinist are the minority.
What words have I put in your mouth. I ask you a simple question.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Quote me saying I follow John Calvin. I'm a Baptist. That's why I am on the Baptist boards. I don't know any Baptists who hold to infant baptism.
But it you want to discuss/debate the OP, looking for a foreign country bordering on Turkey and Georgia won't be helpful.
Do you know who Jacob Arminius is and what he taught?
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Sorry, you cannot begin to prove this. Ever heard of Jacob and Esau?
Romans 9:12-24
12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Our framers spoke at length about the 'tyranny' of the majority'. You should read up on it. It's a meaningless statement.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
And appointing people.....
Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Yeah, so? Appointment to eternal life not the subject matter. The subject is "no one seeks God" which is demonstrably false. Just look at all the unsaved people attending church.
Appointment in the verse I quoted, Acts 17:26, has to do with God putting people into history at a certain time era.
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So, you know denying the Bible does not make you look good?
You equate attendance and choosing to go to church for self-serving reasons as "seeking God." I say that thought is wrong thinking.
The Bible says that the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing. No one seeks God because they see it as foolishness. People who are "seekers" are going to churches to feed their own carnal flesh. In the process of selfishly looking it is possible that God will redeem them because the gospel is being preached.
God chooses whom he will save. People do not choose God because the found a God who was hiding from them.
I am amazed at your man-centered view of redemption.
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
Even Luther believed in purgatory. It's an invention of Catholic nonsense and superstition with no scriptural support.
The Bible says that we are chosen before the foundation of the world to HIS glory, not ours.
Romans 8:30
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
So, you know your misinterpretation of scripture doesn't make you look good?
So you can read people's minds and decide what motivates them.
The gospel being foolishness to people is not the same thing as people not seeking God.
So you can read people's minds and decide what motivates them.
Whoa! And you can read God's mind too! That's great because I have a lot of questions I'd like to ask you, his proxy.
Acts 17:26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him
I'm thinking you should stop speaking for Calvinists because you really cannot articulate the position very well.
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Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Katarina Von Bora
Active Member
What you mean is that you can't handle Acts 13:48. If you cannot see the connection try Strongs at Acts 17:26. There is that word that so many people abuse. 'pas'
- individually
- each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
- collectively
- some of all types
You can hold to your own beliefs, but the scriptures refute you.
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