Arminianism and Calvinism part 2

[InTheLight]

People doing religious things are not necessarily seeking the biblical God.
Many go to appease their consciences.

That may be possible in some cases. But the majority of these people attend these types of churches, affirm the Apostles Creed, repeat the Lord's prayer, have Christ icons in their church, get baptized, take communion, say prayers to Jesus, they are most definitely seeking the God of the Bible and Jesus.

It flat out contradicts the Calvinist's interpretation of Psalm 14:2.

How do you reconcile that?

 

[MennoSota]

What is it you don't like? Born from above? Prefer 'born again' or 'born anew'? I believe the literal rendering 'born from above' correctly conveys the real sense of the heavenly birth as in:

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother. Gal 4

...or:

13 who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten. Jn 1: YLT
if ye know that he is righteous, know ye that every one doing the righteousness, of him hath been begotten. 1 Jn 2:29 YLT
9 every one who hath been begotten of God, sin he doth not, because his seed in him doth remain, and he is not able to sin, because of God he hath been begotten. 1 Jn 3:9 YLT
7 Beloved, may we love one another, because the love is of God, and every one who is loving, of God he hath been begotten, and doth know God 1 Jn 4:7 YLT
1 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him
4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world -- our faith
18 We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him 1 Jn 5 YLT

'Born from above' correctly implies that man is totally passive in it. 'Born again' or 'born anew' provides wiggle room to the free willers to lay claim of taking part in it. Besides, John always uses 'anothen' to mean 'above', or 'from the top'.

Just not a fan of reading the Yiddish Long Translation. [emoji41]

 

[kyredneck]

Just not a fan of reading the Yiddish Long Translation.

Well, I am. I know it's rough but you'll just have to deal with it.

KJV,ASV, and YLT are the three I reference most.

 

[utilyan]

Okay

Now. How does a synergist reconcile God stating that "No one seeks after God, not even one."

You are the synergist. Proof of it is all these post having no confidence that the word of God can speak for itself.
"Synergist and monergist" are Calvinist made up terms, Christians never describe themselves by those terms.


I can 100% quote scripture and say it means what it says, without any comment and a person will get it.

No body discovers Calvinism on their own. Even John Calvin interprets it from what people of the past thought.

No one reads scripture comes to a Calvinist conclusion then says wow well where is the Calvinist church where are the guys who believe what I believe?

No its always some uneducated reeled in by someone else.

What a person reads:

Romans 10:10

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


What a Calvinist teaches:

Romans 10:10
10for with the heart a person believes, after he is made righteous, and with the mouth he confesses, after salvation.


One of those lines above is the holy scripture with the TRUE ORDER of things. The other is FALSE a LIE, not found in the holy bible.

 

[utilyan]

The unsaved always make their own graven Images to worship and bow down to, but they are not looking to find the real God!

You believe everyone deserves hell, so you made God in your image.

How about letting God speak for himself rather then you putting together your own judgement?

Show us a bible verse where God declares "all deserve hell."

You don't have one because you worship a graven image of yourself.

 

[Iconoclast]

That may be possible in some cases. But the majority of these people attend these types of churches, affirm the Apostles Creed, repeat the Lord's prayer, have Christ icons in their church, get baptized, take communion, say prayers to Jesus, they are most definitely seeking the God of the Bible and Jesus.

It flat out contradicts the Calvinist's interpretation of Psalm 14:2.

How do you reconcile that?

Many of them are doing works that will not merit eternal life. They are still in heart rebellion and superstition.....still lost....

 

[tyndale1946]

View attachment 1647

Lol, that's certainly the way you're coming across.



And again, this is not indicative of the natural man.



OK, you've finally included Baptists...



...and you know this how?



Do these passages apply more to non-Baptists than they do Baptists?



See post #27.



To me this is reversed. All the elect from before the foundation of the world will be regenerated in this time realm. Doesn't matter if they're born into Catholicism, Methodism, bigoted Baptists, atheism, paganism, Mohammadism, deepest darkest part of Africa, deaf & blind, mental retards, etc., Christ the life-giving Spirit will find them:

7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3 YLT

Kyredneck... You just stirred me up!... AMEN BROTHER!... Brother Glen

 

[Reynolds]

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly.

View attachment 1645

True, but we can not read more than is there.
It does not say all that God draws will come. Irresistable grace, though I know it is not your term of choice, is my only major hang up with Calvinism. If I resolved it, the minor hang ups with election would fall into place.

 

[Yeshua1]

You believe everyone deserves hell, so you made God in your image.

How about letting God speak for himself rather then you putting together your own judgement?

Show us a bible verse where God declares "all deserve hell."

You don't have one because you worship a graven image of yourself.

Are we not all sinners? Does not sin make us guilty before Holy God?

 

[TCassidy]

How do you reconcile that with Romans 3:11 (which is quoting Psalm 14:2), which states that no one seeks God?

Simple. Let God (and His word) be true and every man a liar.

They are not seeking the True God of the bible nor are they seeking the true salvation of the bible. They are seeking a god made in their own image who will save them according to their will.

 

[TCassidy]

It does not say all that God draws will come.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If I resolved it, the minor hang ups with election would fall into place.

Efficacious grace. What part of God's Grace is a failure? What is it that God wants to accomplish but just can't seem to get it done?

 

[Reynolds]

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Efficacious grace. What part of God's Grace is a failure? What is it that God wants to accomplish but just can't seem to get it done?

Is the Father "giving" the same as The Father "drawing"? Does He draw some that do not respond and thus are not given?
No part of God's grace is a failure. If He offers that grace as irresistable, then it would fail if the person successfully resisted it. That's the point. I am not convinced that He offers it as irresistable. A local pastor I know recently said "God is sovereign. In His sovereignty, He could make a sovereign decision to offer a resistable invitation of grace to a sinner." Honestly, I don't know.

 

[InTheLight]

Many of them are doing works that will not merit eternal life. They are still in heart rebellion and superstition.....still lost....

They are seeking God. And not any God, but the one true God of the Bible. This contradicts the Calvinist assertion that "no one seeks God."

 

[InTheLight]

Simple. Let God (and His word) be true and every man a liar.

They are not seeking the True God of the bible nor are they seeking the true salvation of the bible.

Sure they are. They are wrong on soteriology, but they are seeking Jesus.

 

[TCassidy]

Is the Father "giving" the same as The Father "drawing"?

It seems to me they are.

Does He draw some that do not respond and thus are not given?

All that He draws come.

No part of God's grace is a failure.

I agree.

If He offers that grace as irresistable, then it would fail if the person successfully resisted it.

I am not sure what you mean by "He offers that grace as irresistable." His Grace is sufficient. His Grace never fails (as you stated above). I have no idea what you mean by "He offers that grace as irresistable." His Grace is His Grace. If it fails to accomplish that which He intended it to accomplish either He is not God or His Grace is not His Grace.

That's the point. I am not convinced that He offers it as irresistable.

Sorry, but you are not making any sense. What do you mean by "He offers it as irresistable." What is not efficacious about efficacious Grace?

Honestly, I don't know.

That is why I am trying to help.

I asked you a couple questions several posts ago, whether you were a pastor and if you are seminary trained. You did not answer either question. The questions were not merely out of curiosity. The answers would affect how I answer your questions.

 

[MennoSota]

Well, I am. I know it's rough but you'll just have to deal with it.

KJV,ASV, and YLT are the three I reference most.

It's perfectly fine that you use it. I'll just have to scrounge around to find my "How to translate Yiddish to English" dictionary. [emoji41]

 

[MennoSota]

They are seeking God. And not any God, but the one true God of the Bible. This contradicts the Calvinist assertion that "no one seeks God."

Are they seeking the true God of the Bible or the god of their denomination? There are many who come out of curiosity. Remember Paul at Athens when he was brought before the Aeropagus. Those who were curious were not seeking...other than to increase their own selfish pride about what they knew.
Many atheists know the Bible better than church goers. That doesn't mean they seek God.

 

[InTheLight]

Are they seeking the true God of the Bible or the god of their denomination?

The God of the Bible. Jesus of Nazareth. The Alpha and Omega. The Lamb of God.

There are many who come out of curiosity. Remember Paul at Athens when he was brought before the Aeropagus. Those who were curious were not seeking...other than to increase their own selfish pride about what they knew.
Many atheists know the Bible better than church goers. That doesn't mean they seek God.

These people go to church weekly. They have Bibles. They are baptized. They take communion. They bring their children up in the church. They are not merely "curious".

When visitors come to your church would you say they are not seeking God?



Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

 

[MennoSota]

The God of the Bible. Jesus of Nazareth. The Alpha and Omega. The Lamb of God.



These people go to church weekly. They have Bibles. They are baptized. They take communion. They bring their children up in the church. They are not merely "curious".

When visitors come to your church would you say they are not seeking God?



Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

Satan knows God as the God of the Bible, Jesus of Nazareth. The Alpha and Omega. The Lamb of God.
Just knowing doesn't mean seeking.
Just going to church doesn't mean seeking. Taking communion doesn't mean seeking. Bringing kids to church doesn't mean seeking.
When visitors cone to my church I would say they are curious to see if they would like my church. That curiosity does not equal seeking God. Many people come to church out of curiosity and to feed their own ego, not because they are drawn by God.
I went to Fountain Street Baptist church in Grand Rapids, MI one Sunday to hear a liberal pastor named Duncan Littlefair. He gave the gospel. Stopped. Took his Bible and threw it at the wall and began to tell everyone what a pile of **** that message was. He went on a profanity laced tirade condemning Calvinists and all who preach the gospel. His church was full. Shortly afterward the church became a Unitarian/Universalist church.
So...going to church has no correlation to knowing whom God is urging to seek him.

 

[InTheLight]

How many words and phrases do Calvinist's need to redefine and parse in order to make reality squeeze into their theology?

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