Arminianism and Calvinism

[Van]

Thanks for your detailed and specific response, SheepWhisperer

Men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 Paul spoke to new Christians as "men of flesh" using "milk" therefore scripture teaches the unregenerate can understand and respond to spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.
I have no interest in changing subjects to Divine Knowledge. Please lets stay on topic.
I agree God did not choose foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world. Therefore Ephesians 1:4 teaches when God chose His Redeemer, He also chose corporately the target group of His redemption plan, believers in Christ.
I agree, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.
I agree professing Christ does not necessarily result in salvation, but we differ as to why. My view is only God accepts our faith and credits our faith as righteousness. And as you point out, it is God who knows our heart, and therefore His discernment is the only one that counts. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Many people say that God still is sovereign in salvation, bu how can He really be if He is still waiting to see what we will do?

God "inhabiteth eternity", the Bible says. Jesus even said "before Abraham WAS, I AM". He also said "I anm the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending". Translation for those who don't understand? God FILLS the past present and future. He knows everything that has happened and everything that WILL happen. He is not waiting to see about anything because He is already THERE. But just because God KNOWS what you will do in the next minute or the next year, doesn't mean He makes you do it. I don't think very many here comprehend that. But that's OK, I don't either. But the Bible teaches it and I believe it. Conclusion? God KNOWS whether you will accept Jesus or reject Him. But it's still your choice.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is a stawman, who ever said; made the claim, or even implied that God is waiting to see what we will do?

Is your theology, does not God foresee who will decide to come to hit in Christ, and thus faith preceded election?

 

[Yeshua1]

God "inhabiteth eternity", the Bible says. Jesus even said "before Abraham WAS, I AM". He also said "I anm the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending". Translation for those who don't understand? God FILLS the past present and future. He knows everything that has happened and everything that WILL happen. He is not waiting to see about anything because He is already THERE. But just because God KNOWS what you will do in the next minute or the next year, doesn't mean He makes you do it. I don't think very many here comprehend that. But that's OK, I don't either. But the Bible teaches it and I believe it. Conclusion? God KNOWS whether you will accept Jesus or reject Him. But it's still your choice.

Except that the unsaved.lost sinner cannot discern and receive the things of God unless the Holy Spirit revealks and enables Him to do such!
Preach the Gospel all day none saved apart from the workings of the Holy Spirit unto His elect in Christ...

 

[Revmitchell]

Is your theology, does not God foresee who will decide to come to hit in Christ, and thus faith preceded election?

I'm sorry this sentence is incoherent but if I am reading between the lines correctly the answer is no that is not my theology. Election with regards to salvation is strictly corporate. God chose to save those that receive and believe. John 1:12

 

[Revmitchell]

Except that the unsaved.lost sinner cannot discern and receive the things of God unless the Holy Spirit revealks and enables Him to do such!
Preach the Gospel all day none saved apart from the workings of the Holy Spirit unto His elect in Christ...

I agree with everything until you said "unto His elect in Christ". One is not "in Christ"until they receive and believe. John 1:12

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree with everything until you said "unto His elect in Christ". One is not "in Christ"until they receive and believe. John 1:12

God grants to them their saving faith. All of us would by our sin natures always say NO to Jesus if left to ourselves by God.

 

[Van]

I see your Yeshua1 translator is off line, it reads In you theology, does not God foresee who will decide to come to Him in Christ and thus faith preceded election?

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Thanks for your detailed and specific response, SheepWhisperer

Men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 Paul spoke to new Christians as "men of flesh" using "milk" therefore scripture teaches the unregenerate can understand and respond to spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.
I have no interest in changing subjects to Divine Knowledge. Please lets stay on topic. You asked me the question was it Biblical that "God chose foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world for salvation" and I simply said "unbiblical"
I agree God did not choose foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world. Therefore Ephesians 1:4 teaches when God chose His Redeemer, He also chose corporately the target group of His redemption plan, believers in Christ.
I agree, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.
I agree professing Christ does not necessarily result in salvation, but we differ as to why. My view is only God accepts our faith and credits our faith as righteousness. What is the point of splitting hairs there? I believe it this way.,......Romans 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And as you point out, it is God who knows our heart, and therefore His discernment is the only one that counts. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.

 

[Van]

Being chosen through faith in the truth proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have faith in the truth before God chose us individually for salvation.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

Being chosen through faith in the truth proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that we have faith in the truth before God chose us individually for salvation.

Some ways to know? here you go............

A love for God's Word. 1 John 5:1-5
A love for God's People 1 John 4:7-21
And a love for Jesus 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

[Van]

'Men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 Paul spoke to new Christians as "men of flesh" using "milk" therefore scripture teaches the unregenerate can understand and respond to spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.
I have no interest in changing subjects to Divine Knowledge. Please lets stay on topic. You asked me the question was it Biblical that "God chose foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world for salvation" and I simply said "unbiblical" Fine but you added ". unbiblical: However, God already KNEW who will be saved" I had no interest in addressing that assertion.
I agree God did not choose foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world. Therefore Ephesians 1:4 teaches when God chose His Redeemer, He also chose corporately the target group of His redemption plan, believers in Christ.
I agree, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.
I agree professing Christ does not necessarily result in salvation, but we differ as to why. My view is only God accepts our faith and credits our faith as righteousness. What is the point of splitting hairs there? I believe it this way.,......Romans 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And as you point out, it is God who knows our heart, and therefore His discernment is the only one that counts. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.​

I do not see our different view as "splitting hairs." Romans 8:16 is addressing our condition after we have been chosen individually and placed spiritually in Christ. Our difference deals with our faith before we are individually chosen and placed in Christ. It is God who either credits our faith as righteousness or not.

In summary, I did not see your view of Paul addressing new Christians as men of flesh, teaching unregenerate people have the innate ability to respond to the milk of the gospel. Both Calvinists and Arminians believe the unregenerate cannot respond to the gospel unless enabled by the Holy Spirit. The bible teaches otherwise as I have shown.

You did not say whether you agreed with my view of Ephesians 1:4.

Happily, we agree Christ died for all mankind.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

'Men of flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3 Paul spoke to new Christians as "men of flesh" using "milk" therefore scripture teaches the unregenerate can understand and respond to spiritual milk, the fundamentals of the gospel.
I have no interest in changing subjects to Divine Knowledge. Please lets stay on topic. You asked me the question was it Biblical that "God chose foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world for salvation" and I simply said "unbiblical" Fine but you added ". unbiblical: However, God already KNEW who will be saved" I was referring to the first question when I answered the post .I had no interest in addressing that assertion.
I agree God did not choose foreseen individuals before the foundation of the world. Therefore Ephesians 1:4 teaches when God chose His Redeemer, He also chose corporately the target group of His redemption plan, believers in Christ.
I agree, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, and Christ is the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.
I agree professing Christ does not necessarily result in salvation, but we differ as to why. My view is only God accepts our faith and credits our faith as righteousness. What is the point of splitting hairs there? I believe it this way.,......Romans 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And as you point out, it is God who knows our heart, and therefore His discernment is the only one that counts. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.​

I do not see our different view as "splitting hairs." Romans 8:16 is addressing our condition after we have been chosen individually and placed spiritually in Christ. Our difference deals with our faith before we are individually chosen and placed in Christ. It is God who either credits our faith as righteousness or not.

In summary, I did not see your view of Paul addressing new Christians as men of flesh, teaching unregenerate people have the innate ability to respond to the milk of the gospel. Both Calvinists and Arminians believe the unregenerate cannot respond to the gospel unless enabled by the Holy Spirit. The bible teaches otherwise as I have shown. The Bible teaches that a person must be "drawn" by the Holy Spirit. Calvinists evidently believe that "drawn" means "dragged". I do not. I believe it means closer to "persuaded" or "attracted".

You did not say whether you agreed with my view of Ephesians 1:4. Ephesians 1: 4, as I understand it, put in simple terms, means that God chose "the bride of Christ" to be "spotless", if may put it that way. It's not speaking of being "chosen for salvation" it's speaking of our ultimate sanctification.

Happily, we agree Christ died for all mankind.

 

[Revmitchell]

God grants to them their saving faith. All of us would by our sin natures always say NO to Jesus if left to ourselves by God.

Faith is not the gift salvation is.

 

[JonC]

Faith is not the gift salvation is.

Yet faith is also an aspect of salvation (there is no time where we believe in Jesus but remain lost awaiting to be saved).

In Ephesians Paul writes that it is by grace you are saved through faith - and this is not of your own doing, it is a gift from God. What is the gift? Salvation but not grace or faith? That 's not what the passage says. It says that the gift is that by grace you are saved through faith (instead of you earning salvation through merit).

 

[Van]

. The Bible teaches that a person must be "drawn" by the Holy Spirit. Calvinists evidently believe that "drawn" means "dragged". I do not. I believe it means closer to "persuaded" or "attracted".

I agree, a person must be "drawn" meaning persuaded or attracted by the gospel. It is one thing to say a person must hear the gospel, and quite another to say a person must hear the gospel and be supernaturally altered to hear the gospel by irresistible grace or prevenient grace. [Prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.}

as I understand it [Ephesians 1:4], put in simple terms, means that God chose "the bride of Christ" to be "spotless", if may put it that way. It's not speaking of being "chosen for salvation" it's speaking of our ultimate sanctification.

We come close to agreement here, in that you seem to agree we were not individually chosen for salvation before creation.

Thanks for sharing with courage and clarity your understanding of how God saves us individually.

In summary, total spiritual inability is unbiblical, but we must be drawn in order to put our trust in Christ.
We were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, not unconditionally.
Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.
Once a person is saved, they are saved forever and cannot lose their salvation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yet faith is also an aspect of salvation (there is no time where we believe in Jesus but remain lost awaiting to be saved).

In Ephesians Paul writes that it is by grace you are saved through faith - and this is not of your own doing, it is a gift from God. What is the gift? Salvation but not grace or faith? That 's not what the passage says. It says that the gift is that by grace you are saved through faith (instead of you earning salvation through merit).

When Abraham believed, it was credited unto him for righteousness.[Romans 4:3] So, there is no dormant faith. As soon as one has it, they're saved. So, then not everyone has faith, either.[2 Thess. 3:2]

 

[Revmitchell]

Salvation but not grace or faith?

Exactly

 

[Yeshua1]

I see your Yeshua1 translator is off line, it reads In you theology, does not God foresee who will decide to come to Him in Christ and thus faith preceded election?

No Van, for God has already elected unto salvation those He sees saved in Christ, and to that group God grants saving faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet faith is also an aspect of salvation (there is no time where we believe in Jesus but remain lost awaiting to be saved).

In Ephesians Paul writes that it is by grace you are saved through faith - and this is not of your own doing, it is a gift from God. What is the gift? Salvation but not grace or faith? That 's not what the passage says. It says that the gift is that by grace you are saved through faith (instead of you earning salvation through merit).

Its all part of the "salvation package" God grants towards his elect in Christ!