No, that is exactly what I am saying as well. Belief we choose is not true belief at all (although it may become such).
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Arminianism and Calvinism
- Thread starter SheepWhisperer
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Even that evidence though is due to God, for it is Him working in and thru us for His glory!
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If you are in a situation, are you there because God put you there or because he allowed you to put yourself there?
Then, if it is His will for all to be saved, why do some still go to hell? Do you believe a person's will is stronger than God's will?
He commands all men everywhere to repent. But if they refuse they go to hell. But if he wants them to repent but they refuse doesn't that prove that their will of stronger than His will?
Commands all to repent. All refuse. The Father than draws some, chosen by Him for the good pleasure of His will, to the Son, and the Son will raise them up on the last day.
You seem to be saying that God does not have the right to save whom He chooses, and if He does not choose those whom you think He should choose that He is wrong and you are right. Might I remind you of Romans 9:21 "Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor?"
See the distinction? God, not you, not man (John 1:12-13), makes some to honor and others to dishonor.
Does God have the right to do so with His creation?
It could be either one. If I find myself in a situation not of my own making, I am there because I have an appointment with God. And He will either deliver me from that situation or give me the Grace to endure it.
If I find myself in a situation of my own making, I am there because I have an appointment with God, to teach me a lesson about the wages of sin.
Case in point. I have MS. Through no fault of my own. It is a terrible, debilitating, painful disease. But by God's Grace I am able to endure this affliction.
My dad died form lung cancer. He smoked two to three packs of unfiltered cigarettes every day for 50 years. Even though he was a saved man, God taught him, and used his affliction to teach others, that the wages of sin is death - even for a Christian.
Both fall within the will of God. One via no personal fault, and the other through great personal fault.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
"You sir, are a lowdown, vile and hateful wicked sinner. You deserve Hell. But God loves you so much that He gave His only begotten Son to die on the Cross in your place. If you don't give your heart to Jesus, you are going to burn in the Lake of Fire for all of Eternity for being a heinous sinner.". Tell me sir, is there any "merit" in exercising YOUR faith by FEARING that Truth and casting your soul for Mercy at the feet of Jesus?
Can the creation ever tell its creator that he is doing the wrong thing?
Thanks. And you are right that it would be faith in that person (again, based on that person and my preception). This goes back to the source.
And this is evident throughout the Old Testament. God's word is true not because we choose to believe it but because God is faithful. This is something that is evidenced to us. I don't choose to believe scripture. I know scripture is true because it is God's word, and God has evidence Himself as true.
Can a dead person feel anything?
The lost man his no faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. In fact the lost sinner hates God and considers Him an enemy and is hostile to Him and cannot be subject to God's law. Romans 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
Not only that but 1 Corinthians 2:14 tells us "The natural man doesn’t receive the things of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can’t know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
It is silly to believe a lost person has faith. If a person has faith in Christ as Lord and Savior he is, by definition, a saved person. Faith (along with repentance and obedience) are the result of the regenerating grace of God, not the cause of it. It is impossible for a lost person to have regenerating faith as he is God's enemy, is hostile to God, he is not subject to God, he cannot receive the things of God and considers them foolish, and he can't know them. Period.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
No, it's not about our will being stronger than God's. God wants us to have the choice so this process is His will. Why do people still go to Hell? I don't know the answer to that. The Bible does say they love darkness. But the Bible also tells me to "trust in the Lord...and lean not to my own understanding" and just "preach the word"
No, brother. God is almighty. He's in control. This thing is all His plan, and part of that plan is to give men the choice.
No, the Bible says that "I if I be lifted up will draw all men unto me". It simply means that God's Spirit will woo everyone, some will trust Him some will reject.
No, God can do anything He wants. But what he wants is for all to be saved. I don't understand everything about Romans 9, but it's written about nations, to the nation of Israel.
This isn't about what I think is and isn't God's rights. It's about his true character.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Again, faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. A lost man doesn't just decide one day to have faith. He hears the Gospel, and believes the word of God.
SheepWhisperer
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No, but the "voice" of Psalm 29, the same one which cried, "LAZARUS COME FORTH!!!!!", is more than powerful enough for the dead to hear. I "heard" it.
But the bible says that our choice will always be a "NO!"
Sin.
I do. The wages of sin is death. Death passed upon all men for all have sinned.
Yes, to saved people. But no lost person trusts in the Lord. If he did he would be a saved person.
If He is in control why doesn't He get what you say He wants? And a lost man will always say NO to God his choice just confirms his condemnation.
Yes, the Gospel call is universal. But why don't all come?
Why? What is the difference?
Why can't he save all those you say He wants to save?
Then why can't He accomplish that?
Then why is it called "To the Romans?"
So God does not have the right to do as He pleases with His creation? And if He doesn't do what you want Him to do He is lacking in character? Do you think you are more loving and caring than He is? Do you think you are right and He is wrong if he allows some people to go to hell?
Yes, that has already been established. The Gospel call is universal. It is the response to the Gospel call that we are talking about.
Exactly. Not only doesn't he, he can't.
Yes, but why? Why does one believe and another doesn't? Could it be this? John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Ephesians 3:7 "Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power."
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave the right to become God’s children, to those who believe in his name:
13 who were born not of blood, not of the will of the flesh, not of the will of man, but of God.
Being born of God is not by blood lines (that's what the Jews thought -being Abraham's descendants got them a place in heaven), nor by the desires of the flesh (because that is what we want), nor of the so-called "free will" of man. But it is all of God.
All of God.
None of us.
@TCassidy addressed this,but it was what I was going to ask as well.
Why does a lost man hear the gospel (perhaps not even for the first time) and believe? Why does the lost man believe the gospel of Christ over other false gospels that may be more logical that God becoming a man, dying, and coming back to life three days later)? What makes the difference?
Is it as simple as being lucky enough to choose the right gospel?
And what about two guys sitting side by side, hearing exactly the same Gospel message, but one leaves gloriously saved and the other leaves still lost in his trespass and sins? What is the difference?
Everyone can and does know a true and living God exists. (Romans 1:19) Those who hear the gospel and reject it do so because they love evil more than God. (John 3:19-20) A lost man hears the gospel and believes because he is humble (Luke 18:13). He is broken, poor, captive, and blind. (Luke 4:18) Everyone who is saved fits into these categories. Jesus was not trying to be specific about these physical conditions but was pointing to the heart condition of them who are ready to hear the gospel and believe.
Paul saith that we should speak to people at their level. (I Cor 9:20-23) Scripture over and over again says that we must receive, believe and repent then we are saved. No where does it say or even suggest that we must be first regenerated. Jesus placed regeneration and salvation as the same side of the same coin in John 3.
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Have I ever, even once, said that we must be regenerated in order to believe the gospel?
We have to be more careful with our assumptions. Carelessness with the "other" view is often more divisive than legitimate differences.
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