Arminianism & Calvinism issue to split over?

[loDebar]

You do realize, don't you, that there is a LONG line of Calvinistic Baptists in Baptist history. The "Particular" Baptists in England were Calvinists, and they stretch back into the early 1600s.

Know your history before you further embarrass yourself with more asinine statements like "
Those who choose Calvinism cannot be Baptists."

The Archangel

We who text compassionately are not mad but sure in what we believe on this board, We might agree on another topic just as passionately, or ask for info with respect to another's answers.

I become frustrated when I cannot remember scripture, or do not present ideas well and have others respond to something totally different than I intended,

 

[Dave G]

You do realize, don't you, that there is a LONG line of Calvinistic Baptists in Baptist history. The "Particular" Baptists in England were Calvinists, and they stretch back into the early 1600s.

Know your history before you further embarrass yourself with more asinine statements like "
Those who choose Calvinism cannot be Baptists."

Kindness, good brother...kindness.

yes, but the teachings of individual responsibility and believers baptism are older and shared by others before we were called Baptists, Calvin denied both.

How far back are we going?

If one goes back to the Bible, that is what any discussion should be about, as I see it.
Let's leave John Calvin out of it, because as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't speak for me, just like John Wesley and John R. Rice shouldn't be speaking for anyone else, in my estimation.

I'm a "Baptist" ( the Catholic Church's name for it? ) because of what God's word says, not because of something that someone who read the Bible and started a "movement" said.



May God's blessings be upon you all.

 

[TCassidy]

I totally agree, the beliefs are incomparable, totally contradictions.

How could you possible know that when you admit you don't know what those beliefs are?

 

[loDebar]

How could you possible know that when you admit you don't know what those beliefs are?

Well you learn enough of it to know it is totally wrong. Same as you do for Islam, you do not need to know details between Sunni and Shia to reject each or both.

limited atonement is a non starter

 

[TCassidy]

Well you learn enough of it to know it is totally wrong.

And what do you know about TULEP that is wrong?

 

[loDebar]

And what do you know about TULEP that is wrong?

Limited atonement is an insult to the death of Jesus and the power of God.

 

[loDebar]

unconditional election contradicts God does not have favorites in salvation

 

[loDebar]

I do not know if you are just testing me or not because I can't believe you agree with predestination with your training

 

[Dave G]

I do not know if you are just testing me or not because I can't believe you agree with predestination with your training

What's his "training" got to do with it?
Some people read Scripture and believe it, and some read it and only believe the parts they like, it seems.
However, I remember when I believed as you do.

unconditional election contradicts God does not have favorites in salvation

" And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 )

Yes, He does "play favorites".
If you've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, then He's bestowed a gift upon you that few will ever receive.


" Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." ( Matthew 7:13-14 )

" For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." ( Romans 6:23 )

Also,

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." ( Psalm 5:5 )

He doesn't love everyone equally.
He actually hates all workers ( individuals ) of iniquity...sinners.
Sinners saved by His unmerited grace, He loves.

Why?

" We love him, because he first loved us." ( 1 John 4:19 )

" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." ( Romans 5:8-10 )

Limited atonement is an insult to the death of Jesus and the power of God.

God does not cast people into Hell that He loves.
Please see my posting of Romans 5:8-10 above, and the underlined emphasis.

As I see it, anyone who has told you that God casts people into Hell that His Son has paid their sin debt for, has lied to you...whether intentionally or not.

 

[loDebar]

What's his "training" got to do with it?



" And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 )

Yes, He does "play favorites". If you've believed on Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, then He's bestowed a gift upon you that few will ever receive.

Also,

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." ( Psalm 5:5 )

He doesn't love everyone equally.
He actually hates all workers ( individuals ) of iniquity...sinners. Sinners saved by His unmerited grace, He loves.

God does not cast people into Hell that He loves.
Anyone whose told you that God casts people into Hell that His Son has paid their sin debt for, has lied to you...whether intentionally or not.

I am aware of his knowledge of Hebrew language etc. He has explained things in the past


no favorites for salvation,


ACTS 10:34 NLT 34 Then Peter replied, "I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.

ROMANS 2:11 NLT 11 For God does not show favoritism.

1 PETER 1:17 NLT 17 And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward
you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time as "foreigners in the land."

COLOSSIANS 3:25 NLT 25 But if you do what is wrong, you will be paid back for the wrong you have done. For God has no favorites.

People make decision to go to hell despite God actions to save them

 

[Dave G]

You keep holding to God not choosing to show grace to some and not to others...
So, what do you do with these?

" And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." ( Exodus 33:19 )

"What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." ( Romans 9:14-16 )

" As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." ( Romans 9:13 )

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." ( Psalm 5:5 )

" I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me." ( Proverbs 8:17 )

People make decision to go to hell despite God actions to save them

No one I know, unbelievers included, wants to go to Hell.
No one makes the decision to go to Hell, God commands His angels to cast them into it ( Revelation 20:15 )
Do you mean to tell me that God "tries" to save people, and their decisions over-rule His?

" and all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 )

Not the God of Daniel the prophet, of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
He does as He wishes, both in the armies of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth.

With respect, who told you that God is powerless to save sinners unless He allows them to?
The Bible, or some man?


Scripture states that God, in His mercy, saves His children from being judged and cast into Hell. He then judges the lost by the throne of His Son, and casts them into eternal Hell fire for their sins, that Christ did not pay for.

If He did, then He is punishing those whose sins are already forgiven.
That would be unjust and against His very nature.

 

[McCree79]

I am aware of his knowledge of Hebrew language etc. He has explained things in the past


no favorites for salvation,


ACTS 10:34 NLT 34 Then Peter replied, "I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism.

ROMANS 2:11 NLT 11 For God does not show favoritism.

1 PETER 1:17 NLT 17 And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. He will judge or reward
you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time as "foreigners in the land."

COLOSSIANS 3:25 NLT 25 But if you do what is wrong, you will be paid back for the wrong you have done. For God has no favorites.

People make decision to go to hell despite God actions to save them

"No favorites for salvation"

Which of those verses speaks of salvation?
2 refer to Gentiles and Jews. The rest are refering to judgment.

Context, context, context.




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[loDebar]

"No favorites for salvation"

Which of those verses speaks of salvation?
2 refer to Gentiles and Jews. The rest are refering to judgment.

Context, context, context.

It was in context. Scripture said he does not have favorites which cannot contradict other scripture nor the challenge the character of God. So what are you thinking wrong. We know God chose the nation of Israel and chose Cryus for his purposes.
So in what is He not showing favoritism?




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[The Archangel]

We are spirit being in s human body like Jesus, except He spirit was God you are a sinner
Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Argue with scripture,

The argument isn't with scripture, it is with your interpretation of scripture. What you are talking about here is a red herring.

now you are agreeing with me? I do not understand. Did I answer you as another? sorry

???????

yes, I copied Aorist from Blue letter Bible to show your statement regarding plurality from a verb was incorrect.

My statement about the Aorist was in no way, shape, or form wrong. The Aorist in and of itself does not reflect either singular or plural. Greek verbs have Tense, Voice, Mood, Person, and Number. Aorist is only one of the factors. I have been very clear on that from the beginning.

The Archangel

 

[Dave G]

" It was in context. Scripture said he does not have favorites which cannot contradict other scripture nor the challenge the character of God. So what are you thinking wrong. We know God chose the nation of Israel and chose Cryus for his purposes.
So in what is He not showing favoritism? "



I agree, one Scripture seems to support that.
Yes, context is context, and there are several kinds:

1) Immediate
2) Greater
3) Greatest.

Take everything that God says about a subject, and weight it carefully before arriving at a firm conclusion. I've done it myself too many times, and jumped to conclusions that the Lord has shown me were wrong years later.




Keep reading my friend...as believers, He rewards our efforts at seeking to know Him through His word, with greater understanding of it.

 

[McCree79]

So God can choose nation ..people into himself......he can choose problem for a task....but He can't choose people for salvation?

Why is election synonymous with favorite? It's not.

Why can He not make vessels of mercy....why cant He make vessels of wrath? That is the intended purpose. Not favoritism.

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[loDebar]

"No favorites for salvation"

Which of those verses speaks of salvation?
2 refer to Gentiles and Jews. The rest are refering to judgment.

Context, context, context.




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this one is speaking about bring the Gospel to the Gentiles
Act 10:33
Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
Act 10:34¶
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

this one too,

Rom 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God

This one is speaking to the Brethren reminding them of their salvation,
1Pe 1:17¶
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
1Pe 1:18
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

speaking to christian
Col 3:25
But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

are you looking for a verse addressed to the lost in this manner?

Deuteronomy 10:17 For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords. He is the great God, the mighty and awesome God, who shows no partiality and cannot be bribed.

Job 34:17

Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?
Job 34:18

Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly?
Job 34:19

How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.

 

[loDebar]

So God can choose nation ..people into himself......he can choose problem for a task....but He can't choose people for salvation?

Why is election synonymous with favorite? It's not.

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He gave us free will.Thids allowe us to sin in the first place. He wants us to obey Him in that free will. Our choice not a robot decision.
why would a choice be made to elect when all souls are His?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:30 AM Pacific.

 

[loDebar]

" It was in context. Scripture said he does not have favorites which cannot contradict other scripture nor the challenge the character of God. So what are you thinking wrong. We know God chose the nation of Israel and chose Cryus for his purposes.
So in what is He not showing favoritism? "



I agree, one Scripture seems to support that.
Yes, context is context, and there are several kinds:

1) Immediate
2) Greater
3) Greatest.

Take everything that God says about a subject, and weight it carefully before arriving at a firm conclusion. I've done it myself too many times, and jumped to conclusions that the Lord has shown me were wrong years later.




Keep reading my friend...as believers, He rewards our efforts at seeking to know Him through His word, with greater understanding of it.

I do not seek anymore on this subject. God uses chooses man for His purpose but gives us free will to accept Him as savior. I am sure you will agree Salvation is a choice to be made by the sinner in free will.
Noah was chosen by God to go to Nineveh, made a bad free will decision and suffered the consequences.