As a ‘Calvinist’, How did you come to believe?

[DaveXR650]

Thanks. Don't know what it is, man...guess you just have one of those faces...

You might be right. It's been said that I have a face for radio.

Seriously, this is what I mean. Orthodox Protestant teaching is that justification is declarative, and the basis for it is of course the finished work of Christ. The thing that is required of us is faith. (Not here getting into the idea of to what extent that faith is a gift but just stating the doctrine.) But if we live for a period of time after this we know from scripture, as you have correctly pointed out, that we will have a life we lived and deeds we have done and that will be judged. But what is being judged is whether the "faith" we claimed was a true faith. The actions we did after we were saved were not held up to some kind of balance nor were they of use in making God decide to save us. It's good to be a Berean but a lot of serious men over hundreds of years have come up with conclusions reading the same scriptures you did. At least I would give them an honest hearing without blowing them off. Why should you think John Owen or Thomas Manton would be less of a Berean than you. That's the problem I see here.

 

[AustinC]

Lol, that didn't take long...

Tell you what, if you can produce just one itsy bitsy teeny tiny passage from scripture that states that 'justification is by faith ALONE' I'll answer your silly question.

In the meantime, here's one that plainly states that justification is NOT by faith alone:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 3

...and as has been shown from scripture, that justification is before God and Christ, not man.

The RCC teaches justification by faith plus works. @kyredneck, do you teach justification by faith plus works? A simple yes, or no will suffice.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

???

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? Ja 2

12 And he said, Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him. For now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from me. Gen 22

Lol...

What you seem to forget is that Abraham was justified by faith way back in Genesis 15. Just read Romans 4 to get God's own commentary on the Genesis account.
Hebrews 11:17. 'By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice.' All the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 went out and did something. But the faith came first, and then the works.

 

[kyredneck]

What you seem to forget is that Abraham was justified by faith way back in Genesis 15.

What you seem to forget is that Abraham had good works long before Genesis 15:6, just as Cornelius had good works long before hearing the gospel, and the same with several others PRIOR to coming to faith. You faith aloners have it all wrong in your belief that our faith is the source of our good works. Both our works and our faith are fruits of the spirit. It's regeneration BEFORE conversion. Remember?

 

[AustinC]

What you seem to forget is that Abraham had good works long before Genesis 15:6, just as Cornelius had good works long before hearing the gospel, and the same with several others PRIOR to coming to faith. You faith aloners have it all wrong in your belief that our faith is the source of our good works. Both our works and our faith are fruits of the spirit. It's regeneration BEFORE conversion. Remember?

The RCC teaches justification by faith plus works. @kyredneck, do you teach justification by faith plus works? A simple yes, or no will suffice.

 

[DaveXR650]

You faith aloners have it all wrong in your belief that our faith is the source of our good works.

You talk like being a "faith aloner" is some kind of strange cult. Sorry, but it's all of Protestantism, and includes Baptists that refuse to call themselves Protestant. There are differences in that some groups explain this as being an actual part of what true saving faith is and others prefer to say that saving faith is a bare naked belief in the gospel only - but that it always results in good works as following this in time because a new creature is going to act differently. Others are so "free grace" that they believe good works and pursuit of holiness are optional and may never follow saving faith. One of the main things that led me to reformed theology was that I had big problems with the last option and found that rampant in some non-Calvinist Baptist circles of which I was a part. It's also true that the idea that you are justified initially by faith, but then a series of works are necessary " for final justification is a Roman Catholic teaching. The first mention of "faith alone" I know of was Calvin responding to the Council of Trent on this subject. I have heard that he knew something about Calvinism, or so they say.

 

[kyredneck]

But what is being judged is whether the "faith" we claimed was a true faith.

I challenge you to produce just one 'final judgement' passage where 'faith' is even mentioned. Without exception, it's all about works. In fact, works are the very definer of the 'just' and the 'unjust':

15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5

It's good to be a Berean but a lot of serious men over hundreds of years have come up with conclusions reading the same scriptures you did. At least I would give them an honest hearing without blowing them off. Why should you think John Owen or Thomas Manton would be less of a Berean than you.

Then by all means, if that's what floats your boat, follow the herd, Dave. 'The herd' has 'gone to seed' with justification by faith alone. See if you can make out 'the two hearts' that God will render to according to their works, in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men.

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

 

[37818]

How is one's name kept in the book, Revelation 20:15? Revelation 21:27, ". . . And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. . . ."

 

[AustinC]

How is one's name kept in the book, Revelation 20:15? Revelation 21:27, ". . . And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. . . ."

Here's your answer.

*Hebrews 9:15-17,24*
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

 

[AustinC]

I challenge you to produce just one 'final judgement' passage where 'faith' is even mentioned. Without exception, it's all about works. In fact, works are the very definer of the 'just' and the 'unjust':

15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5



Then by all means, if that's what floats your boat, follow the herd, Dave. 'The herd' has 'gone to seed' with justification by faith alone. See if you can make out 'the two hearts' that God will render to according to their works, in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men.

5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2

The herd follows your faith plus works justification, redneck. The entire RCC, Orthodox, Coptic, and Church of England follows you...or better said, you follow them.

You claim to be a monergist, but in justification you are openly a synergist.

 

[DaveXR650]

Then by all means, if that's what floats your boat, follow the herd, Dave. 'The herd' has 'gone to seed' with justification by faith alone. See if you can make out 'the two hearts' that God will render to according to their works, in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men.

One heart really has true faith. Obviously the impenitent heart would not. As humans how can we know what kind of heart ours is? We have some ability to know by having a witness of the Spirit of course but that itself depends on faith and we know we have a tendency to deceive ourselves. So the best way is self examination. What are we doing, what do we think about, do we pray? If we do this and earnestly pray for wisdom in this God has promised to show us. Verses describing Christians behaving like Christians takes nothing away from the fact that they were justified by faith. They merely describe what people justified by faith do. I honestly don't see how you can read Romans chapter 4 and not at least get to thinking "maybe I need to look closer at my position".

 

[kyredneck]

It's also true that the idea that you are justified initially by faith, but then a series of works are necessary " for final justification is a Roman Catholic teaching.

Regardless of what the blasphemers may say, that's not all what I'm drawing from the scriptures. I've repeatedly espoused this thought (that falls upon deaf ears):

"It's NOT 'by' or 'because' of our works, it's 'according to' our works:

6 who will render to every man according to his works: Ro 2

Our works indicate what lies within."

20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.` Jn 3

Do you get that Dave? God is the source (born of the spirit) of both our works and our faith. This is NOT RCC teaching, it's Baptist teaching.

God is judging two hearts in the context of Romans 2:

The unregenerate heart:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Ro 2

The regenerate heart:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

One heart God has wrought within, the other He has not. It has zilch to do with our faith, let alone our 'faith alone'.

 

[kyredneck]

One heart really has true faith.

<sigh>

One heart God has wrought within, the other He has not. It has zilch to do with our faith, let alone our 'faith alone'.

 

[37818]

Here's your answer.

*Hebrews 9:15-17,24*
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.

Is what Christ has done. But did not answer how one keeps one's name in the book. 1 John 5:4-5, Revelation 3:5.

 

[DaveXR650]

No. I won't let you get away with that. Now you're waffling - you cannot claim that you have to have works in order to be justified in a saving sense and at the same time claim that it's all of God. Nice try, but that is not what you have been saying Ky.

 

[kyredneck]

No. I won't let you get away with that. Now you're waffling - you cannot claim that you have to have works in order to be justified in a saving sense and at the same time claim that it's all of God. Nice try, but that is not what you have been saying Ky.

Egad. Then you have no conception of what "it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure" means.

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

Are you a 'doer of the law' Dave? You better be.

 

[AustinC]

@kyredneck wrote:
"It's NOT 'by' or 'because' of our works, it's 'according to' our works:

So, you're changing the phrasing to say "according to."

This means "Justified by faith alone." is accurate since faith does the works that God has ordained us to do (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

[AustinC]

Egad. Then you have no conception of what "it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure" means.

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

Are you a 'doer of the law' Dave? You better be.

My goodness you seemingly have no clue what Paul is arguing in Romans 2.
Paul is surgically dismantling the law to show both Jew and Gentile that they are justified by faith, not by the law. He is showing that no one is a doer of the law. Everyone falls short and therefore cannot be justified by the law. The law exposes our sin, it does not justify us at all.

 

[DaveXR650]

Romans chapter 2 is showing the general state of men (all of us). The context is that Paul (or whoever wrote Romans) is showing the Jewish readers that just having the law is of no value. If you read on we are all concluded to be under sin. Look at Romans 3:26 and 27. Belief is clearly stated as what is needed as opposed to works - you cannot get around that. What good then are works? To see if our faith is real, saving faith. Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith. Examine what? I can't see faith but I can see my deeds and so can others. And I put a high priority on being a doer of the law. I actually like it now that it no longer functions to condemn me. I believe the moral law is still useful for a rule of life even though I admit that is not fashionable nowadays. (Austin beat me to the post but I'm posting this anyway Ky. Not meaning to pile on.)

 

[DaveXR650]

By the way Romans 3:28 says a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:5 says a man is justified by faith and not by works.

In both cases faith is the only thing mentioned in conjunction with justification and works and doing the law are specifically excluded. Therefore you might say faith is shown as being "alone" in both verses. When other things are specifically excluded by name that is a clue that a point is trying to be made. It's not that good works are not important, we were created to do them, but they don't belong right there, within the cause of justification. That's all.