NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
For an interesting perspective check out the eleven lawgivers from history in the Supreme Court building.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
As an American and a Believer....
- Thread starter righteousdude2
- Start date
Yeah. Dave Barton should be ashamed of himself as well as his followers who have tried to revise American history.
Another way to look at it, the founders may have left the mention of God (or not) to the state constitutions or charters. Note that when amended, the right to practice religion was supposed to be protected by the Constitution. And no federal religion, i.e. secularism, was supposed to be established. Just the opposite of how the Supreme Court has ruled, with prayer and bible study inhibited and godless creation fostered.
America is not a christian nation, like that is even possible for a nation to be christian. Only people get to be christian.
Founders were a mixed bag of theological opinions, some very good others, not so good. Some wanted a national church, state supported like they grew up with or had back in their own states, but thankfully, this suggestion did not prevail.
People are allowed to worship or not worship as they see fit, as it should be, but that hardly makes America christian. I would argue allowing for many opinions about God and even the opinion that there is no God, isn't a christian value at all but rather a secular humanist value.
If it makes you feel better to listen to David Barton and his stretched and distorted "history", then by all means go right ahead, doesn't make it true.
Founders were a mixed bag of theological opinions, some very good others, not so good. Some wanted a national church, state supported like they grew up with or had back in their own states, but thankfully, this suggestion did not prevail.
People are allowed to worship or not worship as they see fit, as it should be, but that hardly makes America christian. I would argue allowing for many opinions about God and even the opinion that there is no God, isn't a christian value at all but rather a secular humanist value.
If it makes you feel better to listen to David Barton and his stretched and distorted "history", then by all means go right ahead, doesn't make it true.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
While I agree that a nation cannot receive Christ, given the beliefs of most of the people in this country, and comparing them favorably to the founders' beliefs, means this nation has always held Christianity and its precepts in highest regard. A Forbes article, Was America founded as a Christian nation? affirms this.
I'm not sure where you get this erroneous idea. There were some minor players in both preparing the Declaration and the Constitution that came from states with officially sanctioned churches, but that was never an intent expressed for the nation as a whole. Again, from the Forbes article:
Wrong. Most other religions, and certainly atheists as currently constituted, have absolutely no tolerance for "other opinions." In fact, it is codified in certain translations of the Qur'an that others must submit to Allah or die. Hardly a description of a "tolerant" faith.
Neither does your adherence to your own warped interpretation of the facts make you correct. The truth lies in between, but tends more toward the concept of Christian principles underlying the founding of this nation.
Last edited by a moderator:
America being a Christian Nation is a strawman argument that only those who hate that America was founded on biblical principles are making.
Baloney! No one that I've seen on this board hates America and you're ridiculous for saying so. Do you have proof of such hatred? No, because it's inane. Why don't you argue the point instead of throwing up ridiculous bumper sticker-isms.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
You might want to calm down, take a deep breath, and go back and read what Rev actually wrote, because you obviously went off half-cocked. Then you can respond to what he said -- which you will still likely disagree with, but at least you will be disagreeing with what he said, not what you read.
Also from the Fortune article
"By transforming our Forefathers into faithful servants of Christ the Religious Right risks compromising the biblical message. Baptist theologian Al Mohler warns advocates of Christian America have “confused their cultural heritage with biblical Christianity.” While Believers must exercise their views, cheapening what constitutes Christianity for political gain profanes the Gospel."
"In The Religious Beliefs of America’s Founders, (which I’ve not yet read) Dr. Frazier suggests designations of Deist or Christian are too simple. He describes the primary beliefs of core Founders as “theistic rationalism.” Frazier notes, “They took elements of Christianity and elements of natural religion and then, using rationalism, they kept what they thought was reasonable, was rational, and rejected what they considered to be irrational.”
This hybrid, unlike Deism, per Frazier, developed a benevolent god who heard and answered prayers to impart justice. All thought Jesus a great moral philosopher, but many important Revolutionary leaders denied his Deity. But be clear, biblical Christianity isn’t mere morals. Dr. Mohler stresses, diluting the Gospel to “Christian values” won’t save perishing souls."
"America wasn’t founded as a Christian nation and many of our beloved Forefathers sadly were not, yet America was largely comprised of Believers. Liberty allows us to worship freely or not at all per conscience. America was never meant to be theocratic or homogenous religiously, but Christianity has always been indelible to our social fabric.
The Founders, even non-Believers, considered that a blessing."
"By transforming our Forefathers into faithful servants of Christ the Religious Right risks compromising the biblical message. Baptist theologian Al Mohler warns advocates of Christian America have “confused their cultural heritage with biblical Christianity.” While Believers must exercise their views, cheapening what constitutes Christianity for political gain profanes the Gospel."
"In The Religious Beliefs of America’s Founders, (which I’ve not yet read) Dr. Frazier suggests designations of Deist or Christian are too simple. He describes the primary beliefs of core Founders as “theistic rationalism.” Frazier notes, “They took elements of Christianity and elements of natural religion and then, using rationalism, they kept what they thought was reasonable, was rational, and rejected what they considered to be irrational.”
This hybrid, unlike Deism, per Frazier, developed a benevolent god who heard and answered prayers to impart justice. All thought Jesus a great moral philosopher, but many important Revolutionary leaders denied his Deity. But be clear, biblical Christianity isn’t mere morals. Dr. Mohler stresses, diluting the Gospel to “Christian values” won’t save perishing souls."
"America wasn’t founded as a Christian nation and many of our beloved Forefathers sadly were not, yet America was largely comprised of Believers. Liberty allows us to worship freely or not at all per conscience. America was never meant to be theocratic or homogenous religiously, but Christianity has always been indelible to our social fabric.
The Founders, even non-Believers, considered that a blessing."
I know exactly what he is saying because he has used that line of thinking before in political discussions. He implies you hate America without actually saying the words "you hate America". It's nonsense no matter how he parses his words
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Forbes, not Fortune. And your selective quotations are disingenuous. The blogger did an excellent job of being "fair and balanced" but, as you have aptly pointed out, comes to this conclusion:
That pretty much destroys any objections you have to this nation being called a "Christian nation" as that terminology applies to the people of this nation and the foundation upon which it was built. You just lost your own argument with that quote. Congratulations.
Greektim
Well-Known Member
I found nothing inspiring about the video. I don't care what the nation was. I care about what it is... and the only word that comes to my mind is "infanticide". I hope we wouldn't call America Christian when so many babies are being sacrificed to the god of America---the individualistic, materialistic self.
I am getting sick of right-wing Christians who are proud to be American (ignoring 1 Cor. 1:31) and equating that w/ Christian values. Patriotism does not equal spiritual discipleship. If anything, America has become the empire that the Roman empire became and Revelation polemicized against.
If you are offended... just know I am restraining my true feelings. The rhetoric I would use for the USA is much more harsh but not permitted on this board.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
See, I was trying to be nice - but this attitude that somehow patriotism (of the red, white, and blue variety of course) is somehow akin to godliness is something I have a huge issue with. There is no connection.
Think actually, he has attempted to rrestore the correct history, the one the secularists took away!
America was founded by those who didi believe in God and the bible, not all saved/Chrsitian, but held allpretty much to God/providence, and wanted us to govern ourselves by statutes/principles of the bible!
"
Right wing" is what pretty much founders were, and what is normal Chrsitianity!
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
At its simplest meaning being patriotic is simply loving one’s country. As long as that love for country does not supersede one’s love for God, and if it is kept in proper perspective, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Christian being patriotic. I don't believe anyone advocating patriotism or love of the United States is superseding love for God with love for country, or "ignoring 1 Corinthians 1:31." We are looking at Paul's admonition to the Roman church as well as his admonition regarding boasting in the Lord.
Romans 13, NASB
1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
We as Christians are under obligation to God to be subject to the governing authorities over us by being model citizens, obeying laws, paying taxes. Of course our first responsibility is to be obedient to God. In America, a democratic republic where individual citizens have the ability to change and influence government by voting or by being politically involved when appropriate and in appropriate ways, part of being a good citizen is voting and having whatever positive influence we can on government.1 Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
5 Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience' sake.
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
Our founding fathers who also cherished their faith are the ones who gave us those responsibilities, and even in the face of government that has forgotten from where this nation came relative to the principles of its founders, we are nonetheless as citizens to honor God and that government, while working diligently to change the things about that government we do not like, and we do that because we love God and country.
Last edited by a moderator:
Number one offender: "Patriotic Sunday" church services. Hey, let's celebrate America, land of abortions, freeloaders, nudity, profanity, sexual permissiveness, and redistribution of wealth! And we'll wrap it up in a church service!
I wish these churches that have Patriotic Sunday church services would stop it and instead mention that they used to have them but can't do it anymore, given the spiritual state of our nation. Acknowledge the veterans in your church and have a nostalgic look back on the good old days. I'd say these services should have stopped sometime in the 1970's.
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
I think I agree with about 95% of this post because of the words 'proper perspective.' I do not think 'love of country' is necessarily sin, but can easily become so.
Since Jerry Falwell that perspective is too often lost.
I have no objection to saying there were Christians and Christians influences in the founding of this country, but that is not the same as being a Christian nation. Which is what the Fortune writer was said, especially in the last paragraph.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
It's amazing you can read "America wasn’t founded as a Christian nation ... " and come to the conclusion Bill Flax said "this is a Christian nation." Unbelievable, in fact.