As evidence of campaign collusion with Russian hackers mounts, Donald Trump is falling apart

[Yeshua1]

Everything's a lie, right? There is no reality. I've been reading "1984" for the first time since college. here are Big brother's (Trump's) major statements:

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength

In the novel. you can be watched through your TV set. This is now possible. President Bush declared endless war against the terrorists. Protesters exercising their 1st amendment rights are beaten up, killed or thrown into jail. Those suspected of 9/11 related crimes were never charged with a crime or given a trial. They're rotting in Guantanamo until they die so they can't tell the truth. There are no more facts only ratings (Kellyanne Conway). Trump is a Christian. The Russians are our friends and the UK and Germany are not. People don't really need healthcare. Taking away support from people in nursing homes (40% rely on Medicaid), people with disabilities, children, the poor is the moral thing to do so tax cuts can be given to the wealthy. America spends more on its military than the next 9 highest military spending countries in the world but we need to increase funding for the Pentagon.

This novel got it all right. It just got the year wrong.

Are you advocating for the rights to have abortion, to be terrorists, and to doing massive media smearing?

 

[church mouse guy]

And on the point of Gitmo, FDR held military trials for Nazi spies captured on American soil and executed some of them. We have been very generous with the Islamic terrorists being held in Gitmo. Gitmo is probably the nicest prison in Cuba by far--in fact, you would have to be high up in the Cuban communist party and married to a Castro offspring to live as well as a Gitmo inmate with running water and plenty of soap and all.

 

[Lewis]

This weekend's blockbuster news came courtesy of the Wall Street Journal: A well-known Republican operative who asserted he was working for Trump campaign adviser Michael Flynn was actively seeking hacker help in obtaining private emails from Hillary Clinton's server, and intelligence agencies had intercepted discussions from Russian hackers at how to provide such help and transmit it back to Michael Flynn and his operatives.

This was immediately followed by a United Kingdom cybersecurity expert coming forward to confirm that he, personally, had been recruited by the operative, Peter Smith to help "validate" copies of "emails from Secretary Clinton's private server" that an unnamed source was offering to provide Smith.

This was not another data dump of documents from the DNC being disseminated through WikiLeaks; this was an effort to obtain information from Clinton's own email server, and came immediately on the heels of candidate Donald Trump publicly calling on Russian hackers to "find" those emails during what would be the last press conference of his entire campaign. Smith appeared to have a deep knowledge of internal campaign deliberations, Smith appeared to have a "reckless lack of interest" in whether or not he was working with the Russian's own hacking efforts, and the documents Smith provided to the expert outlining who would be managing the "research" included not just Flynn, but top campaign officials Steve Bannon and Kellyanne Conway.

This, then, would be the precise sort of "collusion" with foreign intelligence efforts that probes of the Trump campaign's association with Russian election hacks have been exploring. It links the campaign to hacking efforts through the one White House figure other than himself Donald Trump has gone to any effort to protect: Trump and associates had apparently contacted multiple top government officials in an effort to stop or delay the FBI investigation into Flynn before Trump made the sudden decision to fire the FBI director outright.

As evidence of campaign collusion with Russian hackers mounts, Donald Trump is falling apart

This so-called story is posted at DailyKos, which deals largely in rumors.

CNN's Van Jones (and special advisor to Barrack Obama) - "The whole Russia thing is a big nothing-burger. There is nothing you can do." -

 

[FollowTheWay]

The American people are tired of the liberal talking points. No one believes war is peace, freedom is slavery, or ignorance is strength. We are in an endless war against terrorism unless we can somehow contain Islam, the source of modern terrorism worldwide. We have a legal system in place to protect human rights. The GOP has always said that Russia is an evil empire--it was Obama and the Democrats who laughed at Romney for saying that. It was Obama who moved Churchill's bust and who hated the UK and Trump who is seeking to re-establish our historic special relationship with the UK. Germany is a headache for not paying their fair share of their NATO bill while bullying Greece to do whatever Germany says. Of course people need healthcare in spite of what you say but they do not need Castrocare or Obamacare but free market care with regulation.

There is no attempt to scale back Medicaid but an attempt to stop the Obama expansion of Medicaid that was installed to bolster Obamacare, a horribly expensive program that levied fines for attempts to escape the high "taxes" of Obamacare. We do not need to soak the rich and install confiscatory taxes like some Latin American dictatorship. Obama left us with a hollow military and a navy smaller than during the Great Depression, so yes we do need military spending to protect ourselves and to make up for the slack left by our deadbeat European allies.

And on the point of Gitmo, FDR held military trials for Nazi spies captured on American soil and executed some of them. We have been very generous with the Islamic terrorists being held in Gitmo. Gitmo is probably the nicest prison in Cuba by far--in fact, you would have to be high up in the Cuban communist party and married to a Castro offspring to live as well as a Gitmo inmate with running water and plenty of soap and all.

I have no problem with holding trials for Nazi spies during WWII or executing them if found guilty. The prisoners in Gitmo have never even been charged with a crime let alone had a trial. They were not captured on American soil. They have been tortured endlessly. That's not my idea of a m"nice prison." Try it. Only you'll like it.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Sounds like the perfect description of the LIBERAL UTOPIA!!

Simply putting a misused tag on something proves nothing. Name-calling is not a valid form of argument.

 

[FollowTheWay]

He one thing Orwell didn't include in 1984 is abortion because it was unthinkable, the most horrible on the scale of man's inhumanity to man.

But not for the progressive liberals.

Also euthanasia and eugenics have now become acceptable.

HankD

Putting half of the population into one ill-defined group is discrimination and does not mean anything. It does turn out that Orwell was anti-abortion. In addition, the Holocaust and the possibility of global and final nuclear war are as terrible as abortion.

 

[HankD]

I have no problem with holding trials for Nazi spies during WWII or executing them if found guilty. The prisoners in Gitmo have never even been charged with a crime let alone had a trial. They were not captured on American soil. They have been tortured endlessly. That's not my idea of a m"nice prison." Try it. Only you'll like it.

I agree. Having thought about this however I believe that certain forms of coercion should be made acceptable. When I was in the service a project (now declassified) called MK-Ultra was going on where psychotropic drugs were under experimental study to get people to "tell-all".

True in the beginning there were bad results but now these truth serum drugs are quite effective.
IMO This practice should not be banned . Painless. Send the combatant to nirvana to meet allah and give a report. Done, no memory of it. We get what we want. Combatant is still alive.

HankD

 

[church mouse guy]

I have no problem with holding trials for Nazi spies during WWII or executing them if found guilty. The prisoners in Gitmo have never even been charged with a crime let alone had a trial. They were not captured on American soil. They have been tortured endlessly. That's not my idea of a m"nice prison." Try it. Only you'll like it.

And how have these prisoners of war been tortured endlessly? That is just not true. They are guilty of crimes against humanity because Islam is guilty of crimes against humanity and the combatants at Gitmo were terrorists jihadist for Islam. America has allowed them to live and provided them with a standard of living on Cuba that only high-ranking Cuban communists enjoy in that country which was once the richest in Latin America but now is the second poorest in the world, richer than only North Korea. If they are POWs, is it usual to try POWs? Really? And if they are spies because they wear no military uniform, then the trial should be a military trial and should be conducted at Gitmo. Or do you want to follow the FDR example and hold a secret military trial in DC?

 

[FollowTheWay]

And how have these prisoners of war been tortured endlessly? That is just not true. They are guilty of crimes against humanity because Islam is guilty of crimes against humanity and the combatants at Gitmo were terrorists jihadist for Islam. America has allowed them to live and provided them with a standard of living on Cuba that only high-ranking Cuban communists enjoy in that country which was once the richest in Latin America but now is the second poorest in the world, richer than only North Korea. If they are POWs, is it usual to try POWs? Really? And if they are spies because they wear no military uniform, then the trial should be a military trial and should be conducted at Gitmo. Or do you want to follow the FDR example and hold a secret military trial in DC?

The treatment of prisoners of war is dictated by the Geneva Convention (three of them with updates until Aug. 1949). These were agreed to by all countries and were used in the treatment and trials of the Nazi prisoners tried at Nuremberg. The most recent version can be found here:

https://cil.nus.edu.sg/rp/il/pdf/19... to the Treatment of Prisoners of War-pdf.pdf

There s a lot of information in this document but for example it states that:

Article 13
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the
Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its
custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In
particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific
experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of
the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Article 103
Judicial investigations relating to a prisoner of war shall be conducted as rapidly as
circumstances permit and so that his trial shall take place as soon as possible. A prisoner of war
shall not be confined while awaiting trial unless a member of the armed forces of the Detaining
Power would be so confined if he were accused of a similar offence, or if it is essential to do so
in the interests of national security. In no circumstances shall this confinement exceed three
months.

In my mind, neither one of these two articles were complied with in the case of the alleged terrorists imprisoned at Gitmo.

 

[church mouse guy]

And are the jihadist terrorists signatories to the Geneva conventions? Has the combat ended? Do you want to try them as spies? Do you want to try them by military court in Gitmo and execute them there?

 

[Reynolds]

The treatment of prisoners of war is dictated by the Geneva Convention (three of them with updates until Aug. 1949). These were agreed to by all countries and were used in the treatment and trials of the Nazi prisoners tried at Nuremberg. The most recent version can be found here:

https://cil.nus.edu.sg/rp/il/pdf/1949 Geneva Convention (III) Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War-pdf.pdf

There s a lot of information in this document but for example it states that:

Article 13
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the
Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its
custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In
particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific
experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of
the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Article 103
Judicial investigations relating to a prisoner of war shall be conducted as rapidly as
circumstances permit and so that his trial shall take place as soon as possible. A prisoner of war
shall not be confined while awaiting trial unless a member of the armed forces of the Detaining
Power would be so confined if he were accused of a similar offence, or if it is essential to do so
in the interests of national security. In no circumstances shall this confinement exceed three
months.

In my mind, neither one of these two articles were complied with in the case of the alleged terrorists imprisoned at Gitmo.

Obama had 8 years to correct it.

 

[HankD]

The treatment of prisoners of war is dictated by the Geneva Convention (three of them with updates until Aug. 1949). These were agreed to by all countries and were used in the treatment and trials of the Nazi prisoners tried at Nuremberg. The most recent version can be found here:

https://cil.nus.edu.sg/rp/il/pdf/1949 Geneva Convention (III) Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War-pdf.pdf

There s a lot of information in this document but for example it states that:

Article 13
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the
Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its
custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In
particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific
experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of
the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Article 103
Judicial investigations relating to a prisoner of war shall be conducted as rapidly as
circumstances permit and so that his trial shall take place as soon as possible. A prisoner of war
shall not be confined while awaiting trial unless a member of the armed forces of the Detaining
Power would be so confined if he were accused of a similar offence, or if it is essential to do so
in the interests of national security. In no circumstances shall this confinement exceed three
months.

In my mind, neither one of these two articles were complied with in the case of the alleged terrorists imprisoned at Gitmo.

I agree about the Geneva Conventions though technically they do not apply in this case. But I do agree.

However FTW can you document your assertions that there has been no compliance with these two articles at Gitmo.

If you already have please point me to the post.

Thanks
HankD

 

[FollowTheWay]

And are the jihadist terrorists signatories to the Geneva conventions? Has the combat ended? Do you want to try them as spies? Do you want to try them by military court in Gitmo and execute them there?

I think that by stooping to the practices of an obviously renegade, outlaw group we demean the once-revered image of America as a land of freedom and justice. Can you imagine the outrage that would occur if Americans were thrown into prison without any charges and tortured for years without even knowing why they were there. One prisoner at Gitmo was a 14 year old boy who seemingly happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If we resort to this kind of treatment of prisoners we should expect it to come back to us. No, the combat hasn't ended. President Bush declared it to be a never-ending war. I want to see them tried as prisoners of war which is what the Geneva Convention mandated. You say "execute them there." execute them for what? They haven't been charged with anything and you presume they're guilty of something punishable by death.

 

[FollowTheWay]

I agree about the Geneva Conventions though technically they do not apply in this case. But I do agree.

However FTW can you document your assertions that there has been no compliance with these two articles at Gitmo.

If you already have please point me to the post.

Thanks
HankD

I was mistaken but did anyone here know anything about what happened to these prisoners? Why not? Anyway, this is the best explanation I've been able to find answering that question:

The Guantanamo Trials

As of August 2014, only Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, Abd al Hadi al Iraqi, and the five men accused of plotting the 9/11 attacks actually face formal charges. Human Rights Watch has sent observers to all of the military commission hearings, often writing about the proceedings in various publications. For information about the proceedings against each detainee, including those previously charged, click the individual detainee’s name below.

Look at the number of cases in which prisoners were held for years and then had their charges (?) withdrawn, their conviction vacated or were simply released.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Obama had 8 years to correct it.

There were efforts made to change the process (see The Guantanamo Trials) but yes. Many people including myself were not pleased that he did not make good on his promise to close Gitmo.

 

[HankD]

I think that by stooping to the practices of an obviously renegade, outlaw group we demean the once-revered image of America as a land of freedom and justice...

Well, when there is a threat (real or perceived) America puts aside all rules of "human decency" in order to survive - this all nations will do.

e.g. Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Almost a quarter million people, men, women and children were disintegrated over a period of three days, Hundreds of thousands were wounded, some with radiation burns and sickness. Decades of suffering for many.

We survived.We did what we had to do.
Gitmo is/was a reflection of the will to survive in the perception of many.

HankD

 

[Reynolds]

I think that by stooping to the practices of an obviously renegade, outlaw group we demean the once-revered image of America as a land of freedom and justice. Can you imagine the outrage that would occur if Americans were thrown into prison without any charges and tortured for years without even knowing why they were there. One prisoner at Gitmo was a 14 year old boy who seemingly happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If we resort to this kind of treatment of prisoners we should expect it to come back to us. No, the combat hasn't ended. President Bush declared it to be a never-ending war. I want to see them tried as prisoners of war which is what the Geneva Convention mandated. You say "execute them there." execute them for what? They haven't been charged with anything and you presume they're guilty of something punishable by death.

We have a great heritage and history of fighting wars to win. Research how our greatest general ever, W.T. Sherman, ended the problem of the CSA Cavalry mining roads in Georgia.

 

[Reynolds]

There were efforts made to change the process (see The Guantanamo Trials) but yes. Many people including myself were not pleased that he did not make good on his promise to close Gitmo.

We must keep Gitmo open. Great place to stash terrorists and enemy combatants. You bring them on US soil, they then have Constitutional rights.

 

[carpro]

We have a great heritage and history of fighting wars to win. .

Not since 1945, we don't.

 

[Reynolds]

Not since 1945, we don't.

Those were "Conflicts" and "police actions."
We won Iraq and Afghanistan, we just gave it back to different terrorists than we took them from.