Ashes & What Happens in Hell

[Mark Corbett]

Any denial of conscious eternal torment is a first step of doctrinal apostasy.

That's not true for two reasons:
1. Many Christians follow a path like that of the late John Stott, who saw biblical evidence for annihilationism and remained solidly within the evanglical fold, in fact he was a great leader and Bible expositor during his lifetime.
2. The Bible does not teach eternal torment.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Jesus is saving people from the wages of sin: death. He is saving them so that they can have eternal life and not perish (John 3:16).

If the traditional eternal torment view were true, how would you explain the passages in the 7 minute video in the OP that speak of the unsaved being burned up and turned to ashes? Unless I've missed it, you have not addressed the main question and argument in the OP directly yet.

Can you show where the Greek word, ἀπόλλῡμι, means "to annihilate"?. This is from Liddell & Scotts Greek Lexicon

ἀπόλλῡμι or ἀπολ-ύω

(Th. 4.25, Pl. R. 608e, Arist. Pol. 1297a12, but f.l. in Men. 580; the form is rejected by Phryn. PS p.10 B., Moer. 12), impf. ἀπώλλυν A. Pers. 652 (lyr.), S. El. 1360, ἀπώλλυον And. 1.58: fut. ἀπολέσω, ἀπολέσσω, Att. ἀπολῶ, Ion. ἀπολέω Hdt. 1.34, al.: aor. ἀπώλεσα, ἀπόλεσσα: pf. ἀπολώλεκα: — freq. in tmesi in; Pr postponed in Od. 9.534: —

1. stronger form of ὄλλυμι, destroy utterly, kill, in Hom. mostly of death in battle, ἀπώλεσε λαὸν Ἀχαιῶν 11.5.758, al.; ἐκπάγλως ἀπόλεσσαν ib. 1.268; also of things, demolish, lay waste, ἀπώλεσεν Ἴλιον ἱρήν ib. 5.648, etc.; generally, βίοτον δ' ἀπὸ πάμπαν ὀλέσσει will waste my substance, Od. 2.49; οἵ μ' ἀπωλλύτην sought to destroy me (impf. sense), S. OT 1454; in pregnant sense, ἐπεί με γᾶς ἐκ πατρίας ἀπώλεσε drove me ruined from.., E. Hec. 946; τῆς παρ' ἡμέραν χάριτος τὰ μέγιστα τῆς πόλεως ἀ. for the sake of.., D. 8.70.

2. λόγοις or λέγων ἀ. τινά talk or bore one to death, S. El. 1360, Ar. Nu. 892 (lyr.): hence, alone, in fut. ἀπολεῖς με Id. Ach. 470; οἴμ' ὡς ἀπολεῖς με Pherecr. 108.20; ἀπολεῖ μ' οὑτοσί by his questions, Antiph. 222.8, etc.

3. ruin a woman, Lys. 1.8.

II lose, πατέρ' ἐσθλὸν ἀπώλεσα Od. 2.46, cf. Il. 18.82, Democr. 272; ἀπώλεσε νόστιμον ἦμαρ Od. 1.354; ἀπὸ θυμὸν ὀλέσσαι

1. lose one's life, 11.16.861, Od. 12.350; θυμὸν οὐκ ἀπώλεσεν loses not his spirit, S. El. 26; ἔλεον ἀπώλεσεν 11.24.44; freq. of things, ἡ τοῦ πλέονος ἐπιθυμίη τὸ παρεὸν ἀπόλλυσι Democr. 224; ἵππους ἑβδομήκοντα ἀπολλύασι Th. 7.51; ἀπώλεσαν τὴν ἀρχὴν ὑπὸ Περσῶν X. An. 3.4.11, cf. 7.2.22; μηδὲν ἀπολλὺς τοῦ ὄγκου Pl. Tht. 155c; ἀ. οὐσίαν, = ἀπόλλυσθαι, Id. Prm. 163d. Med., ἀπόλλῠμαι: fut. -ολοῦμαι, Ion. -ολέομαι Hdt. 7.218: aor. 2 -ωλόμην: pf. -όλωλα, whence the barbarous impf. ἀπόλωλο Ar. Th. 1212: plpf. in Att. Prose sts. written ἀπωλώλειν in codd., as Th. 4.133, 7.27: — perish, die, 11.1.117, etc.; cease to exist, opp. γίγνεσθαι, Meliss. 8, Pl. Prm. 156b, etc.: sts. c. acc. cogn., ἀπόλωλε κακὸν μόρον Od. 1.166; ἀπωλόμεθ' αἰπὺν ὄλεθρον ib. 9.303: c. dat. modi, ἀπώλετο λυγρῷ ὀλέθρῳ (v.l. λυγρὸν ὄλεθρον) ib. 3.87; ἀ. ὑπό τινος Hdt. 5.126; simply, to be undone, αὐτῶν.. ἀπωλόμεθ' ἀφραδίῃσιν Od. 10.27; ἀπωλώλει τῷ φόβῳ μή.. X. Cyr. 6.1.2: freq. in Att., esp. in pf., ἀπόλωλας you are lost, Ar. Nu. 1077; ἀπωλόμεθ' ἂν εἰ μὴ ἀπολώλειμεν Plu. 2.185f; ἱκανὸν χρόνον ἀπολλύμεθα καὶ κατατετρίμμεθα Ar. Pax 355; βλέπειν ἀπολωλός Philostr.Jun. Im. 2: — as an imprecation, κάκιστ' ἀπολοίμην εἰ.. Ar. Ach. 151, al.; κακὸς κακῶς ἀπόλοιθ' ὅστις.. Eub. 116; ἐξώλης ἀπόλοιθ' ὅστις.. Men. 154; ἀπολλύμενος, opp. σῳζόμενος, Isoc. 6.36, cf. Plu. 2.469d: freq. in part. fut., κάκιστ' ἀπολούμενε o destined to a miserable end! i.e. o thou villain, scoundrel, knave! Ar. Pl. 713, cf. 456, Ach. 865, Pax 2; ὁ κάκιστ' ἀνέμων ἀ. Luc. DDeor. 14.2.

2. in NT, perish, in theol. sense, Joh_3:16, al.; οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι, opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, 1Co_1:18.

II to be lost, ὕδωρ ἀπολέσκετ' (of the water eluding Tantalus) Od. 11.586; οὔποτε καρπὸς ἀπόλλυται never falls untimely, ib. 7.117; ἀπό τέ σφισιν ὕπνος ὄλωλεν Il. 10.186; γέλως ἐξ ἀνθρώπων ἀπόλωλεν X. Smp. 1.15; ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον Antipho Soph. 54; ἀπώλοντο οἱ ὄνοι LXX 1Sa_9:3.


When it says, "cease to exist", it has nothing to do with extinction, but that these had died.

In Greek there are words that do speak of "extermination, destruction", like the verb, "ἀφᾰνισμός", as used by Polybius, Plutarchus, Aristoteles, etc.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Can you show where the Greek word, ἀπόλλῡμι, means "to annihilate"?.

Yes, I mentioned in a previous comment, I have presented an in depth word study of apollumi in another video. I present detailed evidence and arguments to show that apollumi, when referring to what happens to the unsaved at final judgment, does mean annihilation. Here is that video again:

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Bible does not teach eternal torment

that is only your personal reading of it. The language of the Bible, like Matthew 24:46, contrasts Eternal Life, with Eternal suffering. In both cases the Greek, αἰώνιος, means, "without end, never to cease, everlasting". What is true of "Life", has to be true of "punishment". In verse 41 we read of hell being a place of "eternal fire", where the Greek is better, "εις το πυρ το αιωνιον", "into the fire the eternal", where the "fire" will indeed be "eternal", hence the Greek article is used with each word.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Yes, I mentioned in a previous comment, I have presented an in depth word study of apollumi in another video. I present detailed evidence and arguments to show that apollumi, when referring to what happens to the unsaved at final judgment, does mean annihilation. Here is that video again:

Yes, this "indepth" study is what you assume ἀπόλλῡμι to mean. I know of no examples from the LXX, where this word is used to show to annihilate.

Will you be dealing with what I said earlier on Jude 7 and Revelation 19 and 20, where it is clear, that in the former case, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in Genesis 19, and yet writing 1000's of years later, Jude says that their suffering was still ongoing at his time. Likewise, in the passages in Revelation, the beast and false prophet were cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, at the beginning of the 1000 Years, and at the end, when the devil is thrown into the same Lake of Fire and Brimstone, the beast and false prophet, are very much still there! And "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever". "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων", which is the strongest possible way to say in Greek, "time without end"! Nothing here about being "annihilated"!

 

[Mark Corbett]

The language of the Bible, like Matthew 24:46, contrasts Eternal Life, with Eternal suffering. In both cases the Greek, αἰώνιος, means, "without end, never to cease, everlasting". What is true of "Life", has to be true of "punishment".

I agree that αἰώνιος (aionios) means "everlasting" both times it is used on Matthew 25:46. Here is the verse:

CSB17 Matthew 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Notice that only the righteous get eternal life.
There is only one type of punishment that lasts forever but does not require living forever: permanent annihilation.

Matthew 25:46 teaches conditional immortality, not eternal torment. Torment is not the only type of punishment.

 

[37818]

The soul of ALL humans is immortal, whether lost or saved.

Not Biblical. Ezekiel 18:4. James 5:20. Matthew 10:28.

 

[Mark Corbett]

II hope to have time to respond to all the points in your comments. Soon I will be shifting to some other commitments this evening, but hope to reengage tomorrow. I may still have a little time tonight. Feel free to remind me if I miss some important points.

Yes, this "indepth" study is what you assume ἀπόλλῡμι to mean. I know of no examples from the LXX, where this word is used to show to annihilate.

In my word study I focus on data for apollumi from the NT supplemented with some extrabiblical data. However, the LXX does use apollumi in a way that is consistent with annihilation in Psalm 37. That is explained in some depth in this article that I coauthored at Rethinking Hell:

Psalm 37: Song of Annihilation

 

[SavedByGrace]

Not Biblical. Ezekiel 18:4. James 5:20. Matthew 10:28.

The Hebrew נֶפֶשׁ, like the Greek, ψυχή, also means, "a person, a living being". And, there is physical and spititual and eternal "death", taught in the Bible.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I coauthored at Rethinking Hell

that will lead many into GRAVE ERROR!

 

[Mark Corbett]

The soul of ALL humans is immortal, whether lost or saved.

Actually, the Bible never says that all humans have an immortal soul or that all people will live forever. Rather, the Bible teaches that eternal life is only received as God's gracious gift to those who believe in Jesus. I have a 7 minute video on this exact topic:

 

[Iconoclast]

That's not true for two reasons:
1. Many Christians follow a path like that of the late John Stott, who saw biblical evidence for annihilationism and remained solidly within the evanglical fold, in fact he was a great leader and Bible expositor during his lifetime.
2. The Bible does not teach eternal torment.

Many saw John Stott as beginning to fall from truth.
Jesus taught eternal torment more than anyone else.
I have seen you attempt these falsehoods on several forums, it does not change the truth as historically understood.

 

[tyndale1946]

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

According to scripture, it says I can't deliver one person out of Hell and also according to this it is a place of eternal torment... Brother Glen

 

[AustinC]

SavedByGrace, thanks for responding to my post! I'll try to respond to some of your comment perhaps in several different replies. This first:



Both in the Bible (the law given to Moses) and in our modern culture, the death penalty is often considered the most severe penalty and is reserved for severe crimes. And yet, the person suffering the death penalty often suffers little pain, or only suffers for a short time, depending on the method of execution. The death penalty is not considered severe because of the pain inflicted, but rather because of what the executed person will miss out on. With respect to the ungodly finally perishing in the final judgment, they miss out on eternal life in a perfect world of pure joy. That is a very serious punishment.

This is a weak argument. Atheists expect nothing but this life. The godless feed their hedonism because they see this life as all there is. If there is no justice provided by God for their sin and nothing but annihilation happens, then the majority of sinners get what they expected and are oblivious to whatever they may have missed. There is no sadness on their part. They got what they expected and what they argued for from the beginning. God therefore never avenges the blood of the saints who were martyred. No justice, no peace.

 

[SavedByGrace]

This thread, and its topic, are a direct attack on the Biblical Doctrine of eternal, concious, suffering, for the unsaved lost. This is an attack that has its origin in hell, and the devil as its author, who from the beginning said to Adam and Eve, "hath God said", so as to contradict the very Words of Almighty God! Sadly he is using those who call themselves "evangelical", to promote his fase HERESIES! IF there is no eternal suffering for the unsaved lost, then Jesus Christ is not truthful in what He Himself taught, and the Holy Bible is a book that teaches falsehood. Both, we know to be not possible!

Like so called "New Atheism", and other arracks on the God of the Bible, and The Bible Itself, these LIARS will be destroyed by the TRUTH of Holy Scripture.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Brother Glen,

You wrote:

According to scripture, it says I can't deliver one person out of Hell and also according to this it is a place of eternal torment... Brother Glen

The Scripture you quote for this is Luke 16:19-31, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

That story takes place in the intermediate state prior to resurrection and final judgment. The doctrine of conditional immortality does not address what happens in the intermediate state. Instead, it is focused on the fate of the ungodly at final judgment. Further, the story does show the rich man in torment, but it does not say that the torment will continue forever.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Brother Glen,

You wrote:



The Scripture you quote for this is Luke 16:19-31, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

That story takes place in the intermediate state prior to resurrection and final judgment. The doctrine of conditional immortality does not address what happens in the intermediate state. Instead, it is focused on the fate of the ungodly at final judgment. Further, the story does show the rich man in torment, but it does not say that the torment will continue forever.

WHY are you avioding Jude 7 and Revelation 19 and 20???

 

[Baptist Believer]

A couple of comments about a few of your objections:

The problem with annihilationism, is that it is not really any "punishment" for the lost.

Sure it is. It's capital punishment.

if a person ceases to exist after they die, then how can this be "suffering", which is what the Bible, especially Jesus, says that will be for those who are lost.

Please be specific about the passages where the Bible claims the wicked suffer in everlasting conscious torment.

Further, why would Jesus tell Judas, that it is better that he was not even born (Matthew 26:41), if he was only going to be "annihilated" after he died?

Because he had wasted his life and will miss out on everything he had seen and heard regarding Jesus.

Jesus also uses phrases like, "weeping and gnashing of teeth", in Matthew 13:42, "and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Gnashing of teeth is an idiom that many believe is of suffering. It's not. It is an idiom that represents unholy rage and disgust. It is used in Acts 7:54, when Stephen was before the Council. They became furious with Stephen ("Now when they heard this, they were infuriated, and they began gnashing their teeth at him"), rushed him, and stoned him. Stephen was not causing them physical pain. So weeping and gnashing of teeth is sadness and unholy rage.

 

[Baptist Believer]

what does Jesus mean in Luke 12:47-48?

And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.

Let's look at Luke 12:47-48 instead of your interpretation of the verses:

And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.​

The passage does NOT say "a severe beating" or "a light beating," it says "many blows" and "a few blows." If eternal conscious torment is true, both situations will be an infinite number of blows, contradicting the plain meaning of verses.

For the passage to make sense, the punishments have to end at some point.

 

[Baptist Believer]

What is the function of a fire that is never quenched for a finite process?

quench - /kwen(t)SH/ - verb - extinguish (a fire)

Why do the worms never die if the people are gone (either annihilated or universally reconciled)?

The "worms," actually maggots, turn into flies. The maggot stage is simply one part of the life cycle.

Mark 9:42-48 [NKJV]

“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where

‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’​

​

The fundamental issue here is that you apparently don't recognize the passage Jesus is quoting. You can be sure His audience knew it:

Isaiah 66:22-24
“For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So will your descendants and your name endure.
And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
“Then they will go out and look
At the corpses of the people
Who have rebelled against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be extinguished;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”​

This is the final image of Isaiah (the last three verses), where the enemies of God had been slain ("corpses of the people who have rebelled against Me") who, in death, have the shame of being consumed by fire and maggots, with no one putting out the fire (quenching it) and the maggots happily consuming the flesh until they turn into flies.

This is CLEARLY not torment, much less eternal conscious torment. The enemies of God are dead. This, like almost all of the Old and New Testament, points to the destruction of the wicked in the plainest terms imaginable.​