Asking for scriptural rebuttal to TULIP

[George Antonios]

• Not really , as scriptures clear that Jesus first chooses us, due to the Father electing us to be saved by Him, and the Spirit then enables our wills to be able to accept Jesus as lord!

Again, you're giving opinion, not scriptures. And that's because you cannot deny that Revelation 22:17 does not say "only the elect" or mention the "elect". You injected those foreign elements into the verse.
That's the book definition of private interpretation and wrest my words.

 

[1689Dave]

This is off topic but I cannot allow this to stand. If you dislike attaching the "antisemitic" title to Luther and Calvin, fine with me. I will instead say both, more-so Luther were anti-Jew.

https://scholarship.rollins.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1019&context=mls
"Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler ’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation"

On the Jews and Their Lies - Wikipedia
"Luther's attitude toward the Jews took different forms during his lifetime. In his earlier period, until 1537 or not much earlier, he wanted to convert Jews to Lutheranism (Protestant Christianity), but failed. In his later period when he wrote this particular treatise, he denounced them and urged their persecution.[1]"

I will try to stay on-topic in future post.

It was about religion, not people. One is antisemitic to say the Jews are the Semites and the rest of the Arab world is not.

 

[37818]

Outside of God's initiating conviction in us first, of course, we all agree to that.
But the Spirit of God bringing in light and initiating conviction in a man is one thing, and making that man born again against his will so he can then seek (?) God [what's the point of seeking now that he's just been found? but whatever] is another.

In any case man needs God's intervention or a man will perish.

 

[Yeshua1]

In any case man needs God's intervention or a man will perish.

Yes, as a lost sinner will prefer to stay lost in the dark!

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, you're giving opinion, not scriptures. And that's because you cannot deny that Revelation 22:17 does not say "only the elect" or mention the "elect". You injected those foreign elements into the verse.
That's the book definition of private interpretation and wrest my words.

Its like when the scriptures states world, we must determine its meaning by context, and also by what the other verses state to us in regards to 'free will" or not for lost sinners!

 

[George Antonios]

In any case man needs God's intervention or a man will perish.

No on denies that. But that's a world away from saying that a lost man has no free will, and that God gives that apparently randomly chosen man a new nature without the man's free will being engaged, since he has none, irresistibly forcing into him a new nature and making him believe the gospel.

 

[George Antonios]

Its like when the scriptures states world, we must determine its meaning by context, and also by what the other verses state to us in regards to 'free will" or not for lost sinners!

Amazing how that Bible never, in any of those verses, actually says that:

whosoever = elect only
or
world = elect only

I mean, you'd expect at least one verse to make that restriction! But who cares?! You'll restrict it yourself if you have to!

p-r-i-v-a-t-e interpretation.

 

[Yeshua1]

No on denies that. But that's a world away from saying that a lost man has no free will, and that God gives that apparently randomly chosen man a new nature without the man's free will being engaged, since he has none, irresistibly forcing into him a new nature and making him believe the gospel.

sinners are still free to exercise their wills, its just that certain things they will always choose not to do, such as trusting in Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Amazing how that Bible never, in any of those verses, actually says that:

whosoever = elect only
or
world = elect only

I mean, you'd expect at least one verse to make that restriction! But who cares?! You'll restrict it yourself if you have to!

p-r-i-v-a-t-e interpretation.

Is there election for the saints then, and if yes, on what basis does God do that?

 

[George Antonios]

sinners are still free to exercise their wills, its just that certain things they will always choose not to do, such as trusting in Christ!

When you have a verse defining world as "only the elect" and whosoever as "only the elect"; please let us know.

Otherwise...it's private interpretation. Text.book.example.

 

[Yeshua1]

When you have a verse defining world as "only the elect" and whosoever as "only the elect"; please let us know.

Otherwise...it's private interpretation. Text.book.example.

When you have any verse that supports real free will for lost sinners, let us know!

 

[37818]

No on denies that. But that's a world away from saying that a lost man has no free will, and that God gives that apparently randomly chosen man a new nature without the man's free will being engaged, since he has none, irresistibly forcing into him a new nature and making him believe the gospel.

All men are self willed beings. Without the hearing of the gospel men will not seek God. A few might listen but most will tune it out.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

No on denies that. But that's a world away from saying that a lost man has no free will, and that God gives that apparently randomly chosen man a new nature without the man's free will being engaged, since he has none, irresistibly forcing into him a new nature and making him believe the gospel.

Another off-topic position that I fell must be addressed.

[Jhn 1:12 ESV] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
[Jhn 1:13 ESV] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Note: The will, free or otherwise, of spiritually dead men, could not bring about spiritual life.

[Jhn 5:40 ESV] yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
They were spiritually dead. Christ offered them spiritual life!

 

[MB]

• Not really , as scriptures clear that Jesus first chooses us, due to the Father electing us to be saved by Him, and the Spirit then enables our wills to be able to accept Jesus as lord!

No it isn't clear that God first chose us. Christ was speaking to the disciples when He said that. Being chosen didn't mean much to Judas in fact if you think about it Judas rejected Christ.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

Another off-topic position that I fell must be addressed.

[Jhn 1:12 ESV] But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
[Jhn 1:13 ESV] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Note: The will, free or otherwise, of spiritually dead men, could not bring about spiritual life.

Nope it sure can't and no one claims it can.

[Jhn 5:40 ESV] yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
They were spiritually dead. Christ offered them spiritual life!

Yep they sure were but that verse does not say that spiritually dead can't come to Christ.

 

[Scott Downey]

[Gen 12:3 ESV] 3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

Abraham is the father of us all. But Abraham and his descendents only according to the calling of God will bless the earth, one of whom was Christ, who are not naturally born according to the flesh, they must be born according to the Spirit for such persons to bless the world.

Faith is according to Grace, without the grace you could have no faith.
Since our faith is by God's grace, this makes the promise of God sure to all the 'seed' and that seed are not those naturally born.

Romans 4:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

Romans 8
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

This is a very important concept to understand.

 

[utilyan]

Just a clarification: The "Total" is not a measure of the DEPTH of "depravity" (corruption from ideal), but the BREATH of our "depravity". Our Thoughts (mind) is depraved and wants to think about sin ... like envy and greed. Our Flesh (body) is depraved and craves after sin ... like lust and gluttony. Our Moral Compass (spirit) is depraved and wants to be a god or create idols ... like Adam and Eve in the garden. The depravity (corruption of our nature to want sin) affects every part of our being.

So it does not render us sociopaths that are incapable of doing any good deed, that would be a TOTAL DEPTH of depravity/corruption. However, it does mean that our fallen mind does not naturally think the thoughts of God ("Let he who is greatest among you be the servant of all" is not natural human thinking). Our fallen body does not naturally think "I do not want to lust after anyone because I want to please God more than my flesh." Our fallen spirit does not naturally desire to submit to the authority and control of another.

Carry on.

atpollard, Wouldn't it be the case that the moment you are regenerated, you no longer depraved?


" Our fallen body does not naturally think "I do not want to lust after anyone because I want to please God more than my flesh." Our fallen spirit does not naturally desire to submit to the authority and control of another."

This is where you are wrong. Under YOUR ROOF there might have been chaos, you might have to HIT ROCK BOTTOM for that flash light to go off in your head.

Never met a Calvinist who didn't hit rock bottom. Its like when a AA person or Scientologist gets taste of something that works finally getting actual discipline, then they assume the whole world is like them in need of AA.

Every Calvinist I ever met, hit rock button. Was a DRUNK, was on DRUGS, Wanted to commit suicide, were devil worshipers.

The idea that Calvinists are the only moral compass on earth is laughable. Late to the party maybe.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nope it sure can't and no one claims it can.



Yep they sure were but that verse does not say that spiritually dead can't come to Christ.

They are in a state of war with God, refusing to obey or turn to Him....

 

[Yeshua1]

No it isn't clear that God first chose us. Christ was speaking to the disciples when He said that. Being chosen didn't mean much to Judas in fact if you think about it Judas rejected Christ.
MB

Jesus chose judas to fulfill the scriptures that one would betray him, but Judas never was ever saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

atpollard, Wouldn't it be the case that the moment you are regenerated, you no longer depraved?


" Our fallen body does not naturally think "I do not want to lust after anyone because I want to please God more than my flesh." Our fallen spirit does not naturally desire to submit to the authority and control of another."

This is where you are wrong. Under YOUR ROOF there might have been chaos, you might have to HIT ROCK BOTTOM for that flash light to go off in your head.

Never met a Calvinist who didn't hit rock bottom. Its like when a AA person or Scientologist gets taste of something that works finally getting actual discipline, then they assume the whole world is like them in need of AA.

Every Calvinist I ever met, hit rock button. Was a DRUNK, was on DRUGS, Wanted to commit suicide, were devil worshipers.

The idea that Calvinists are the only moral compass on earth is laughable. Late to the party maybe.

You seem to have met many who profess Jesus, without actually being saved by Him!