Asking for scriptural rebuttal to TULIP

[Yeshua1]

Reiterating, I borrow from both classic calvinism and classic arminianism because I believe both had the right intents towards glorifying God but slipped into error in human reasoning. I'd always attempt pruning away the errors to see unity over common grounds of truth. That said, why do you wish to introduce a new point of division that never existed. The only point of TULIP that both classic calvinism and arminianism agreed on was total depravity. Why seek to refute what has been already accepted by both sides?


Is this a fair way of exegeting texts? The text shows that the Spirit makes men willing - but where does it say the flesh cannot will? And even conceptually, what of all the wicked willing evil - that definitely isn't from the Spirit, then is the conclusion that the wicked don't will anything at all? At any rate, even by your direct word searches in Scriptures, we come with
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


Not born again, No. But definitely supernaturally worked upon by God in the giving of a new heart and mind - if you must, the Arminian concept of prevenient grace.


total depravity does mean exactly that in man born in the natural state. Wesley held to original sin and total depravity too. Think about it, prevenient grace was a necessity within the arminian framework sheerly because Arminianism held to total inability of the flesh without such grace.

both Wesley and Calvin agreed upon the total depravity of fallen sinners, but their big difference was that Wesley saw God providing towards all sinners sufficient grace to be enabled to respond freely to the Gospel of Christ, while Calvin saw it only in the regards of applying towards the chosen elect in Christ.

 

[MB]

I am not aware of classic calvinism teaching that - they only say man in his natural state is spiritually dead because he is in the flesh and not in the spirit, not that there is no spirit at all or that it's literally dead. When born again, he (his soul?) is birthed again in the spirit and is no longer in the flesh as before in the first birth (Rom 8:9). Total inability of the flesh is what's described in Rom 7: 25, Rom 8:7-8 and elsewhere. Do you read these passages differently?

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
I agree with these verses. Just where in these verses does it say Man cannot seek God. It says The spirit is in us If God dwells in us The natural man is not subject to the Law and that he can't please God Pleasing God is doing His will. Man does not just go out and get saved by His own will but man being willing is necessary. God does not save men against there will. Grace is not irresistible the Jews rejected Christ when He came to save them from there sins..
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Brother, I and tens of thousands of other believers, reject Total Depravity. We believe in Depravity but not in Total Depravity in the Calvinistic sense whereby it extends to the free will of man rendering him unable to believe or choose.
I don't know what makes you think that everyone accepts Total Depravity in the Calvinistic sense.

Think classic Arminians like Wesley held to that though also!

 

[MB]

Romans 8:7/John 8:44

First of all there is no Romans 8:44.
Tell me what makes you believe that God drew you to Christ?
MB

 

[utilyan]

While I believe TULIP is supported via scripture, I do not consider myself a Calvinist because of his anti-Semitic views.

TULIP

T of TULIP Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)


[Isa 64:6 ESV] 6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..


[Jer 17:9 ESV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?



U of TULIP Unconditional Election

Rom 8:28 - 30 ESV - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


L of TULIP Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)

[Jhn 10:3-4 ESV] 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

[1Co 15:23 ESV] 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

[Phl 3:12 ESV] 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.


I of TULIP Irresistible Grace

[Jhn 6:37-40 ESV] 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."


[Tit 3:5-7 ESV] 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


P of TULIP Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

[Eph 1:13-14 ESV] 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

[Eph 4:30 ESV] 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.



EXTRA, EXTRA. Read all about it!!

Regardless of the efforts of professing Christian working in the name of Christ, if they are not born-again as His child, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. They exercised their will while not in submission to His will.


[Mat 7:21-23 ESV] 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'



Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.

Excerpt from "Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio," by John Calvin

[Isa 64:6 ESV] 6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..


You have yet to establish TULIP with SCRIPTURE ALONE.


[Isa 64:6 ESV] 6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..

Does not mean you are incapable of doing any good. Also being LIKE one is not IS ONE. You can be like a rock, that does not mean you are a rock.




[Jer 17:9 ESV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Does not mean the heart is incapable of doing anything good.



THE tire is the first thing to go flat. doesn't mean no tire can roll.



You guys are filling way too much IN BETWEEN THE LINES. For instances and contexted having absolutely nothing to do with DOCTRINE. If it was actual doctrine there would have been a big deal, even coming out of Jesus' mouth.

INSTEAD Jesus Preaches just the opposite.


Matthew 7

7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9“Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10“Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Here is where a Calvinist needs to give into deception calling GOOD THINGS EVIL and EVIL THINGS GOOD.

IF you are Totally depraved.....you do not know how to give good gifts period.


Luke 11

13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

The Calvinist answer is ZERO. TELL ME I AM LIAR! The Calvinist answer is ZERO you can't ask for the holy spirit....UNLESS You have the holy spirit. BACKWARDS!

 

[ivdavid]

The natural man can't please God...
Pleasing God is doing His will.

If you hold to the above, aren't you describing total inability of the flesh?
Why according to you can't the natural man do God's will? And isn't God's will for all to seek, obey and please Him by doing His will?

Grace is not irresistible the Jews rejected Christ when He came to save them from there sins..

Jesus came to harden the Jews of that generation at that time but I agree with you - grace isn't irresistible to the non-elect, especially seen in the rejection of God's gathering of the Jews under His wings throughout the OT. But we're discussing total inability of the flesh right - What the flesh is capable or incapable of before God supernaturally working in them, right?

 

[Yeshua1]

First of all there is no Romans 8:44.
Tell me what makes you believe that God drew you to Christ?
MB

Before I was saved by him, was agnostic, more into aliens and ufos theology!

 

[atpollard]

First of all there is no Romans 8:44.

He said:

• Romans 8:7
  • [NASB] because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,]
• John 8:44
  • [NASB] "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Tell me what makes you believe that God drew you to Christ?
MB

(answering for myself)

• [John 6:43-45 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

• I an not grumbling that Jesus words are unfair, untrue or too hard.
• I have come to Jesus.
• Therefore, from this passage, I must have been "learned from the Father" and the Father who sent Him must have drawn me.

• [John 10:25-29 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.
  • Those that do not believe, do not believe because they are not His sheep.
  • Those that are His sheep do believe (and hear and follow ...)
  • I believe, so I must be one of His sheep rather than "not of My sheep".
  • His Father has GIVEN His sheep to Him. (Father "has given" = Father "draws")

 

[atpollard]

IF you are Totally depraved.....you do not know how to give good gifts period

Just a clarification: The "Total" is not a measure of the DEPTH of "depravity" (corruption from ideal), but the BREATH of our "depravity". Our Thoughts (mind) is depraved and wants to think about sin ... like envy and greed. Our Flesh (body) is depraved and craves after sin ... like lust and gluttony. Our Moral Compass (spirit) is depraved and wants to be a god or create idols ... like Adam and Eve in the garden. The depravity (corruption of our nature to want sin) affects every part of our being.

So it does not render us sociopaths that are incapable of doing any good deed, that would be a TOTAL DEPTH of depravity/corruption. However, it does mean that our fallen mind does not naturally think the thoughts of God ("Let he who is greatest among you be the servant of all" is not natural human thinking). Our fallen body does not naturally think "I do not want to lust after anyone because I want to please God more than my flesh." Our fallen spirit does not naturally desire to submit to the authority and control of another.

Carry on.

 

[37818]

First of all there is no Romans 8:44.
Tell me what makes you believe that God drew you to Christ?
MB

Ah, it is John 8:44.

 

[Yeshua1]

He said:

• Romans 8:7
  • [NASB] because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,]
• John 8:44
  • [NASB] "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies.

(answering for myself)

• [John 6:43-45 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

• I an not grumbling that Jesus words are unfair, untrue or too hard.
• I have come to Jesus.
• Therefore, from this passage, I must have been "learned from the Father" and the Father who sent Him must have drawn me.

• [John 10:25-29 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.
  • Those that do not believe, do not believe because they are not His sheep.
  • Those that are His sheep do believe (and hear and follow ...)
  • I believe, so I must be one of His sheep rather than "not of My sheep".
  • His Father has GIVEN His sheep to Him. (Father "has given" = Father "draws")

Your scriptures and mine pretty much nail down total depravity!

 

[Yeshua1]

Just a clarification: The "Total" is not a measure of the DEPTH of "depravity" (corruption from ideal), but the BREATH of our "depravity". Our Thoughts (mind) is depraved and wants to think about sin ... like envy and greed. Our Flesh (body) is depraved and craves after sin ... like lust and gluttony. Our Moral Compass (spirit) is depraved and wants to be a god or create idols ... like Adam and Eve in the garden. The depravity (corruption of our nature to want sin) affects every part of our being.

So it does not render us sociopaths that are incapable of doing any good deed, that would be a TOTAL DEPTH of depravity/corruption. However, it does mean that our fallen mind does not naturally think the thoughts of God ("Let he who is greatest among you be the servant of all" is not natural human thinking). Our fallen body does not naturally think "I do not want to lust after anyone because I want to please God more than my flesh." Our fallen spirit does not naturally desire to submit to the authority and control of another.

Carry on.

many misunderstand what we mean by that term, as they think it means that we all are running around being wicked all the time, but truth is that we take it to mean that while we can still go good works and be "nice", we cannot and will not come to Jesus to save us in and by ourselves, as our sin natures will not permit us to do that!

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I think people get it wrong saying Luther and Calvin were antisemitic.

This is off topic but I cannot allow this to stand. If you dislike attaching the "antisemitic" title to Luther and Calvin, fine with me. I will instead say both, more-so Luther were anti-Jew.

https://scholarship.rollins.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1019&context=mls
"Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler ’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation"

On the Jews and Their Lies - Wikipedia
"Luther's attitude toward the Jews took different forms during his lifetime. In his earlier period, until 1537 or not much earlier, he wanted to convert Jews to Lutheranism (Protestant Christianity), but failed. In his later period when he wrote this particular treatise, he denounced them and urged their persecution.[1]"

I will try to stay on-topic in future post.

 

[Van]

While I believe TULIP is supported via scripture, I do not consider myself a Calvinist because of his anti-Semitic views.

TULIP
T of TULIP Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
[Isa 64:6 ESV] 6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..

[Jer 17:9 ESV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

The "T" is better described as total spiritual inability, or the claim that the Fall resulted in the lost not being able to seek God or effectively believe in Christ. The the above support does not support total inability, therefore the ploy is to prove "A" and claim "B" has been proved.

OTOH, Matthew 23:13 teaches lost people can seek God (they were entering the kingdom) thus demonstrating total spiritual inability is false doctrine, and limited spiritual ability (able to understand spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food) is true biblical doctrine. 1 Cor. 3:1-3.

U of TULIP Unconditional Election

Rom 8:28 - 30 ESV - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Again, the verse does not provide the "meaning" of "called." Here the idea is after God credits a person's faith as righteousness, He transfers them into the kingdom of His Son, and this transfer is what is meant. So before creation, God formulated His Redemption plan, with those His Redeemer would redeem being the target group of the redemption plan, and also including predestining those redeemed based of faith being conformed to the image of His Son. Once in Christ, the person is justified (by the washing of regeneration and the circumcision of Christ) and glorified (spiritually enter the kingdom within Christ and having spiritually having the righteousness of Christ.)

L of TULIP Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)

[Jhn 10:3-4 ESV] 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

[1Co 15:23 ESV] 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.ce
[Phl 3:12 ESV] 12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Once again, the above verses do not say "how" a person becomes one of His sheep. Christ is the means of salvation for all mankind, but only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are placed in Christ, thus becoming one of Christ's sheep.

I of TULIP Irresistible Grace

[Jhn 6:37-40 ESV] 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

[Tit 3:5-7 ESV] 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Here again we have the prove A then claim B has been proved ploy. Once in Christ, we are irresistibly kept in Christ, OSAS. However, that is not the actual doctrine being presented. The actual doctrine says we cannot seek God unless enabled by irresistible grace, and once under the influence of God's tractor beam, we are irresistibly compelled to seek God and believe in Christ. The actual biblical doctrine is God invites us through the gospel, and if we believe fully in Christ, God credits our faith as righteousness and places us in Christ.

P of TULIP Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

[Eph 1:13-14 ESV] 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

[Eph 4:30 ESV] 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Once saved always saved in correct and true biblical doctrine.

 

[George Antonios]

Where you see the will of man being involved in the new birth, I do not know, but to me, it isn't John 1:13.
If you know of another passage that tells us that man's will is involved in the new birth, please list it.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Like you said - just the words on the page, as they stand. Amen?

 

[George Antonios]

Romans 3:11, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

Outside of God's initiating conviction in us first, of course, we all agree to that.
But the Spirit of God bringing in light and initiating conviction in a man is one thing, and making that man born again against his will so he can then seek (?) God [what's the point of seeking now that he's just been found? but whatever] is another.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is off topic but I cannot allow this to stand. If you dislike attaching the "antisemitic" title to Luther and Calvin, fine with me. I will instead say both, more-so Luther were anti-Jew.

https://scholarship.rollins.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=1019&context=mls
"Luther and Hitler: A Linear Connection between Martin Luther and Adolf Hitler ’s Anti-Semitism with a Nationalistic Foundation"

On the Jews and Their Lies - Wikipedia
"Luther's attitude toward the Jews took different forms during his lifetime. In his earlier period, until 1537 or not much earlier, he wanted to convert Jews to Lutheranism (Protestant Christianity), but failed. In his later period when he wrote this particular treatise, he denounced them and urged their persecution.[1]"

I will try to stay on-topic in future post.

true, as his stand at the end was used by Hitler to spread his plan to "solve the Jewish problem" in Germany!

Its why we must desperate the theology from the man, as scriptures are perfect, but we are far from that!

 

[Yeshua1]

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Like you said - just the words on the page, as they stand. Amen?

the one who is able to do that willing is His elect!

 

[George Antonios]

the one who is able to do that willing is His elect!

Only the scripture did not sat that. You did. You injected an external philosophy into the verse. That's a classic example of private interpretation and the modus operandi of every cult in the world from the Roman Catholic Church on down.

 

[Yeshua1]

Only the scripture did not sat that. You did. You injected an external philosophy into the verse. That's a classic example of private interpretation and the modus operandi of every cult in the world from the Roman Catholic Church on down.

• Not really , as scriptures clear that Jesus first chooses us, due to the Father electing us to be saved by Him, and the Spirit then enables our wills to be able to accept Jesus as lord!