Featured Asking for scriptural rebuttal to TULIP

both Wesley and Calvin agreed upon the total depravity of fallen sinners, but their big difference was that Wesley saw God providing towards all sinners sufficient grace to be enabled to respond freely to the Gospel of Christ, while Calvin saw it only in the regards of applying towards the chosen elect in Christ.

 

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
I agree with these verses. Just where in these verses does it say Man cannot seek God. It says The spirit is in us If God dwells in us The natural man is not subject to the Law and that he can't please God Pleasing God is doing His will. Man does not just go out and get saved by His own will but man being willing is necessary. God does not save men against there will. Grace is not irresistible the Jews rejected Christ when He came to save them from there sins..
MB

 

Think classic Arminians like Wesley held to that though also!

 

First of all there is no Romans 8:44.
Tell me what makes you believe that God drew you to Christ?
MB

 

[Isa 64:6 ESV] 6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..


You have yet to establish TULIP with SCRIPTURE ALONE.


[Isa 64:6 ESV] 6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away..

Does not mean you are incapable of doing any good. Also being LIKE one is not IS ONE. You can be like a rock, that does not mean you are a rock.




[Jer 17:9 ESV] 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

Does not mean the heart is incapable of doing anything good.



THE tire is the first thing to go flat. doesn't mean no tire can roll.



You guys are filling way too much IN BETWEEN THE LINES. For instances and contexted having absolutely nothing to do with DOCTRINE. If it was actual doctrine there would have been a big deal, even coming out of Jesus' mouth.

INSTEAD Jesus Preaches just the opposite.


Matthew 7

7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8“For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9“Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10“Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

Here is where a Calvinist needs to give into deception calling GOOD THINGS EVIL and EVIL THINGS GOOD.

IF you are Totally depraved.....you do not know how to give good gifts period.


Luke 11

13“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?”

The Calvinist answer is ZERO. TELL ME I AM LIAR! The Calvinist answer is ZERO you can't ask for the holy spirit....UNLESS You have the holy spirit. BACKWARDS!

 

If you hold to the above, aren't you describing total inability of the flesh?
Why according to you can't the natural man do God's will? And isn't God's will for all to seek, obey and please Him by doing His will?

Jesus came to harden the Jews of that generation at that time but I agree with you - grace isn't irresistible to the non-elect, especially seen in the rejection of God's gathering of the Jews under His wings throughout the OT. But we're discussing total inability of the flesh right - What the flesh is capable or incapable of before God supernaturally working in them, right?

 

Before I was saved by him, was agnostic, more into aliens and ufos theology!

 

He said:

• Romans 8:7
  • [NASB] because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so,]
• John 8:44
  • [NASB] "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies.

(answering for myself)

• [John 6:43-45 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

• I an not grumbling that Jesus words are unfair, untrue or too hard.
• I have come to Jesus.
• Therefore, from this passage, I must have been "learned from the Father" and the Father who sent Him must have drawn me.

​

• [John 10:25-29 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.
  • Those that do not believe, do not believe because they are not His sheep.
  • Those that are His sheep do believe (and hear and follow ...)
  • I believe, so I must be one of His sheep rather than "not of My sheep".
  • His Father has GIVEN His sheep to Him. (Father "has given" = Father "draws")

 

Just a clarification: The "Total" is not a measure of the DEPTH of "depravity" (corruption from ideal), but the BREATH of our "depravity". Our Thoughts (mind) is depraved and wants to think about sin ... like envy and greed. Our Flesh (body) is depraved and craves after sin ... like lust and gluttony. Our Moral Compass (spirit) is depraved and wants to be a god or create idols ... like Adam and Eve in the garden. The depravity (corruption of our nature to want sin) affects every part of our being.

So it does not render us sociopaths that are incapable of doing any good deed, that would be a TOTAL DEPTH of depravity/corruption. However, it does mean that our fallen mind does not naturally think the thoughts of God ("Let he who is greatest among you be the servant of all" is not natural human thinking). Our fallen body does not naturally think "I do not want to lust after anyone because I want to please God more than my flesh." Our fallen spirit does not naturally desire to submit to the authority and control of another.

Carry on.

 

Ah, it is John 8:44.

 

Your scriptures and mine pretty much nail down total depravity!

 

many misunderstand what we mean by that term, as they think it means that we all are running around being wicked all the time, but truth is that we take it to mean that while we can still go good works and be "nice", we cannot and will not come to Jesus to save us in and by ourselves, as our sin natures will not permit us to do that!

 

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Like you said - just the words on the page, as they stand. Amen?

 

Outside of God's initiating conviction in us first, of course, we all agree to that.
But the Spirit of God bringing in light and initiating conviction in a man is one thing, and making that man born again against his will so he can then seek (?) God [what's the point of seeking now that he's just been found? but whatever] is another.

 

true, as his stand at the end was used by Hitler to spread his plan to "solve the Jewish problem" in Germany!

Its why we must desperate the theology from the man, as scriptures are perfect, but we are far from that!

 

the one who is able to do that willing is His elect!

 

Only the scripture did not sat that. You did. You injected an external philosophy into the verse. That's a classic example of private interpretation and the modus operandi of every cult in the world from the Roman Catholic Church on down.

 

• Not really , as scriptures clear that Jesus first chooses us, due to the Father electing us to be saved by Him, and the Spirit then enables our wills to be able to accept Jesus as lord!