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Asking for scriptural rebuttal to TULIP

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atpollard

atpollard

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utilyan said:
atpollard, Wouldn't it be the case that the moment you are regenerated, you no longer depraved?
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No longer totally depraved at any rate, but not fully sanctified either (verses available upon request if really needed).

utilyan said:
Never met a Calvinist who didn't hit rock bottom.
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R.C. Sproul claimed to be one. (I wasn't there when he was growing up, so I only have his word for it). He simply claims that he was raised always knowing about God from his earliest memories. His parents brought him up in the knowledge of the lord.

I do not claim that God cannot or does not choose people from a very early age. Samuel and David and John the Baptist all come to mind as examples from scripture. I just argue that scripture does not teach that anyone first chooses God and then God loves and draws and chooses and predestines them.

You are even free to disagree with me with my blessings. I think you are wrong, but that is your right and it does not prevent God from Foreknowing and Predestining and Calling and Justifying and Glorifying you if that is what God desires.
 
Y

Yeshua1

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atpollard said:
No longer totally depraved at any rate, but not fully sanctified either (verses available upon request if really needed).


R.C. Sproul claimed to be one. (I wasn't there when he was growing up, so I only have his word for it). He simply claims that he was raised always knowing about God from his earliest memories. His parents brought him up in the knowledge of the lord.

I do not claim that God cannot or does not choose people from a very early age. Samuel and David and John the Baptist all come to mind as examples from scripture. I just argue that scripture does not teach that anyone first chooses God and then God loves and draws and chooses and predestines them.

You are even free to disagree with me with my blessings. I think you are wrong, but that is your right and it does not prevent God from Foreknowing and Predestining and Calling and Justifying and Glorifying you if that is what God desires.
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he misunderstands what Calvinists teach and believe, but far worse, he seems to misunderstand Pauline Justification!
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
he misunderstands what Calvinists teach and believe, but far worse, he seems to misunderstand Pauline Justification!
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I have tried to understand what Catholicism teaches about Sotierology (no small task given the vast difference between Catholic and Protestant theological vocabulary). If I have correctly understood their world view, then very few Protestants actually understand what the Catholic Church teaches either.

For example, if I have understood correctly, Christ saves His Bride, the Church ... the one, true, apostolic and Catholic (with a capital C) Church. God saves it/them collectively. Therefore, anyone IN the Church is part of the Bride and to be saved and anyone outside of the Church is not part of the Bride and not saved. It is closer to the National Covenant with Israel than the Individual Election of Calvinism. God saves individuals by drawing them into His Church.
(At least that is roughly how it was explained to me.)

I am confident that there are plenty of Catholics that will be willing to correct me if I am WAY off base, but I am fairly certain that the concept of God saving individuals outside of His Church is not how they think God normally operates.
 
Walpole

Walpole

Well-Known Member
utilyan said:
atpollard, Wouldn't it be the case that the moment you are regenerated, you no longer depraved?


" Our fallen body does not naturally think "I do not want to lust after anyone because I want to please God more than my flesh." Our fallen spirit does not naturally desire to submit to the authority and control of another."

This is where you are wrong. Under YOUR ROOF there might have been chaos, you might have to HIT ROCK BOTTOM for that flash light to go off in your head.

Never met a Calvinist who didn't hit rock bottom. Its like when a AA person or Scientologist gets taste of something that works finally getting actual discipline, then they assume the whole world is like them in need of AA.

Every Calvinist I ever met, hit rock button. Was a DRUNK, was on DRUGS, Wanted to commit suicide, were devil worshipers.

The idea that Calvinists are the only moral compass on earth is laughable. Late to the party maybe.
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Exactly. Hence redefining being born again to be the moment they put down the bottle.
 
Walpole

Walpole

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
I have tried to understand what Catholicism teaches about Sotierology (no small task given the vast difference between Catholic and Protestant theological vocabulary). If I have correctly understood their world view, then very few Protestants actually understand what the Catholic Church teaches either.

For example, if I have understood correctly, Christ saves His Bride, the Church ... the one, true, apostolic and Catholic (with a capital C) Church. God saves it/them collectively. Therefore, anyone IN the Church is part of the Bride and to be saved and anyone outside of the Church is not part of the Bride and not saved. It is closer to the National Covenant with Israel than the Individual Election of Calvinism. God saves individuals by drawing them into His Church.
(At least that is roughly how it was explained to me.)

I am confident that there are plenty of Catholics that will be willing to correct me if I am WAY off base, but I am fairly certain that the concept of God saving individuals outside of His Church is not how they think God normally operates.
Click to expand...

You are indeed WAY off base. Catholicism does not teach by nearly being Catholic, one is saved. Salvation is not collectivism.

There are lots of tares growing with the wheat.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Walpole said:
You are indeed WAY off base. Catholicism does not teach by nearly being Catholic, one is saved. Salvation is not collectivism.

There are lots of tares growing with the wheat.
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Fair enough. Then I will ask you what I always ask.
Can you point me to a source on Catholic Sotierology?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
atpollard said:
I have tried to understand what Catholicism teaches about Sotierology (no small task given the vast difference between Catholic and Protestant theological vocabulary). If I have correctly understood their world view, then very few Protestants actually understand what the Catholic Church teaches either.

For example, if I have understood correctly, Christ saves His Bride, the Church ... the one, true, apostolic and Catholic (with a capital C) Church. God saves it/them collectively. Therefore, anyone IN the Church is part of the Bride and to be saved and anyone outside of the Church is not part of the Bride and not saved. It is closer to the National Covenant with Israel than the Individual Election of Calvinism. God saves individuals by drawing them into His Church.
(At least that is roughly how it was explained to me.)

I am confident that there are plenty of Catholics that will be willing to correct me if I am WAY off base, but I am fairly certain that the concept of God saving individuals outside of His Church is not how they think God normally operates.
Click to expand...
the Church is the Kingdom of god here upon earth, as per Augustine, and the RCC sees the entry way into salvation via water baptism, as that is when Original Sin washed away, and Holy Spirit regenerates the Infant. The 7 sacraments are effectual Grace, in that the person takes them in faith, and God Infuses Garce into them, and if enough spiritual grace is taken and credited towards them, then God sees them actually meriting keeping salvation and getting eternal life as in right to heaven as saints. Most fail to reach that state, so get purgatory instead, but eventually get to heaven by that route!
Church of Rome gust disagrees with Pauline Justification, has instead God having grace towards sinners, but up to us to make final salvation...
Apostate teaching, false Gospel!
 
Wesley Briggman

Wesley Briggman

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atpollard said:
Therefore, anyone IN the Church is part of the Bride and to be saved and anyone outside of the Church is not part of the Bride and not saved.
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Yeshua1 said:
the Church is the Kingdom of god here upon earth, as per Augustine, and the RCC sees the entry way into salvation via water baptism, as that is when Original Sin washed away, and Holy Spirit regenerates the Infant.
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A medical doctor in my Sunday School class did his internship in a Catholic Hospital. He said that there were holy (wholly?:() water "kits" on the wall to insert the water into the womb to baptize the baby under certain circumstances - where the child might not be delivered, etc.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism
"By the present authorized ritual of the Latin Church, baptism must be performed by a laving of the head of the candidate. Moralists, however, state that in case of necessity, the baptism would probably be valid if the water were applied to any other principal part of the body, as the breast or shoulder. In this case, however, conditional baptism would have to be administered if the person survived (St. Alphonsus, no. 107). In like manner they consider as probably valid the baptism of an infant in its mother's womb, provided the water, by means of an instrument, would actually flow upon the child. Such baptism is, however, later to be repeated conditionally, if the child survives its birth (Lehmkuhl, n. 61)."

The RCC is the biggest, most prominent and successful lie of Satan deceiving lost mankind.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Wesley Briggman said:
A medical doctor in my Sunday School class did his internship in a Catholic Hospital. He said that there were holy (wholly?:() water "kits" on the wall to insert the water into the womb to baptize the baby under certain circumstances - where the child might not be delivered, etc.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism
"By the present authorized ritual of the Latin Church, baptism must be performed by a laving of the head of the candidate. Moralists, however, state that in case of necessity, the baptism would probably be valid if the water were applied to any other principal part of the body, as the breast or shoulder. In this case, however, conditional baptism would have to be administered if the person survived (St. Alphonsus, no. 107). In like manner they consider as probably valid the baptism of an infant in its mother's womb, provided the water, by means of an instrument, would actually flow upon the child. Such baptism is, however, later to be repeated conditionally, if the child survives its birth (Lehmkuhl, n. 61)."

The RCC is the biggest, most prominent and successful lie of Satan deceiving lost mankind.
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The 2 biggest counterfeits of true Christianity would be RCC, and islam. as Rome teaches false gospel, while islam "mimics" reverence towards Jesus enough to have many think its a legit religion!
 
Walpole

Walpole

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Cool, so you only baptize repenting adults by immersion like Jesus disciples and John the Baptist did?
Welcome to the Baptist Church!
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The Catholic Church does baptize repenting adults. Sometimes baptism is by immersion, other times by simply pouring water over the person. It's the water that is the matter of the sacrament; irrespective of the volume used. However, the Catholic Church does not baptize ONLY adults, for the kingdom of God does not have an age requirement. Hence the Church baptizes children as well.

Matthew 19:14 ---> But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

Do you force your children to live outside of your house until they are old enough to profess membership in your household? I would hope not. So too Christians do not keep their children from the household of God. Thus entire households were baptized in Apostolic times, which included children. (e.g. Acts 16:15, 1 Cor. 1:16)
 
JonC

JonC

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Due to its length this thread is closed. Please feel free to continue the discussion by starting a new thread.
 
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