Asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

[Diggin in da Word]

I recently started kicking around in my head the thought that the souls, of those in Christ who have died, stay in heaven and that verse is not speaking of souls at all.

Hear me out for a minute. Verse 17 of 1 Thessalonians 4 states:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air... Isn't it interesting that Paul did not write to meet the Lord and our souls in the air?

I was reading this the other night and was impressed to go to John 14. Here I read:

John 14:1-3 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Christ said He would receive us unto Himself.

Well, certainly when we are received unto Christ in the air, we shall be brought back to God, right?

Thoughts?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Look at this verse. It is a comparison verse. 'If'...'even so'

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again...

Well we who are Christ's certainly do believe in the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Savior.

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I believe this is speaking of the physical resurrection of the children of God from the graves. The rest of the passage simply explains what will bring about that resurrection and the events after it... we shall be caught up, we shall meet the Lord in the air.

 

[tinytim]

My preaching they are asleep in Jesus is also in line with Allan's post above. BTW, I been preaching that for 34 years which is longer than Allan is old.:laugh: :wavey: :flower: Almost got you too Tim.

careful there....you are showing your age!! :tongue3:

 

[Brother Bob]

even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
I believe this is speaking of the physical resurrection of the children of God from the graves. The rest of the passage simply explains what will pring about that resurrection and the events after it... we shall be caught up, we shall meet the Lord in the air.

How could He bring them with Him if they are in the grave?

When He comes He is bringing the angels to send to the four corners of the earth to gather in all of His children and "if the same Spirit be in you that raised Christ from the dead it shall also quicken your mortal bodies".
The Lord may be coming in the air but the angels will come farther and also His Spirit will quicken our mortal bodies and to do that the soul must be rejoined with the bodies by that Spirit.

That is the way I see it.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

How could He bring them with Him if they are in the grave?

The Lord will bring them with Him to God.

 

[Allan]

As far as the souls under the altar of God, even if they were of those who repented later they still were at rest under the altar of God and can't see God putting some souls one place and some another.

Brother Bob, here is another thought concerning are spirit/soul of those dead under the alter.

I don't think so. As I stated previously about Mose on the Mt. of Transfiguration. But also take Lazarus and Abraham who was there with him speaking to the rich man in Hell. Not to mention Rev. 4 and 5 speaking of the church in heaven but this is also after the resurrection (in my book - Im a pre-triber) but then this shows one reason why those martyrs in ch 6 are under the altar.
I doubt though they are actually UNDER the altar, but is more of a metaphore with regard to Gods protection and comfort we see this in the OT when people would go and grab hold the alter. Like these:

1Ki 1:50 And Adonijah feared because of Solomon, and arose, and went, and caught hold on the horns of the altar.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Ki 1:51 And it was told Solomon, saying, Behold, Adonijah feareth king Solomon: for, lo, he hath caught hold on the horns of the altar, saying, Let king Solomon swear unto me to day that he will not slay his servant with the sword.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Ki 2:28 Then tidings came to Joab: for Joab had turned after Adonijah, though he turned not after Absalom. And Joab fled unto the tabernacle of the LORD, and caught hold on the horns of the altar.

We find these beneath the alter which is a much more sure place of safety as we see in scriptures that we are UNDER the Blood of Christ. But it also leaves me thinking that as believers it is not the alter we will run to but the lamb of God, only the Jew would run to the altar which signifies their covanent with God.

Also these beleivers are not like those of the church for they want vengence and Gods judgement one those who killed them. Are these the Tribulation saints of whom scripture states were the Jews will begin taking up the truth as in ancient times and will be apart of the greatest persecution in history. Just some things to ponder IMHO.

I do have a question on those under the alter are at rest.
Who or where is it stated that those under the alter were at rest in the first place??
The scriptures simply state:

Rev 6:9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

It is pretty clear those under the alter were martyrs and that they were to rest until those others who are YET to be martyred be fulfilled.
Now, what is of interest to me is that God says they should rest for a little season or specific time.
What were they doing before God told them to rest?? asleep? Not that I have found.
They were also give white garments long after they were there, why?
The fact God tells them to wait a LITTLE season shows this martyrdom was almost at an end.
Another interesting note was that God describes two differing believers; one of fellowservents and the other as their brethern, Why?
Could it be that it is for two distinct bodies concerning the 2 different covenants one with Israel (fellowservants) and their BRETHREN (believing Gentiles) or vise versa?

Just some questions to hear your thoughts on. :smilewinkgrin: :type:

 

[Brother Bob]

It is pretty clear those under the alter were martyrs and that they were to rest until those others who are YET to be martyred be fulfilled.
Now, what is of interest to me is that God says they should rest for a little season or specific time.
What were they doing before God told them to rest?? asleep? Not that I have found.
They were also give white garments long after they were there, why?
The fact God tells them to wait a LITTLE season shows this martyrdom was almost at an end.

Rev 7:13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Apparently the reason they were disturbed is they had not received their White robes as of yet. Why? because it had not been shed and this is what makes me believe this took place when Jesus died. They had not their White Robes which come from the blood of the Lamb and then they were given them, so I think this tells us when this
took place.
Rev 6:9¶And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled

"rest yet" seems to say they were at rest before to me. I could be wrong but if that is not the case then why didn't the writer say "they should rest for a little season"?

These are my thoughts for years and base it on where did they get their White Robes of which the Bible tells us.

 

[Allan]

Interesting:

So If Jesus hadn't died yet, How could he have opened the other four seals AND the fith seal which they were in. This is one reason I say they hadn't recieved their robes yet when others DID. Remember in Chapter 1 or Rev. were John saw Jesus enthroned and Ch 4 shows John saying "Who is worthy to open the seals...Then came the slain Lamb. They should have recieved their Rodes here at the before the first seal was opened. Since these seals are judgment FOR the Tribulation which is 70th week of Danial, the robes should have been given long before this and even speaks of the elders being in heaven and the church as well.
I'm just trying to see how you place us in heaven at this point (5th seal) and still not robed especially since it describes those under the altar as martyrs only.

Apparently the reason they were disturbed is they had not received their White robes as of yet.

I don't see this in the text Bro. Bob. They were upset because God had not yet avenged their deaths and brought judgment. They say nothing about robes, but God gives them robes. I simple show that before the robes were given to them in the 5th seal, the church was already praising God for the Lamb who was able to open the seals and was there at the 1st seal opening.

Just discussing this, as it is interesting

 

[Brother Bob]

Apparently the reason they were disturbed is they had not received their White robes as of yet.

There is no text except the Lord told them they should rest yet and that seems to say at one time they were at rest but I could be stretching but don't believe they were in heaven all that time complaining. I guess I kinda include the rest that Paul spoke of too.
God had made a promise to Israel that the messiah would come but yet many died before His coming so they could not of had their robes it it came from His blood. When Jesus died that blood covered them that had died under the Law and God fulfilled His promise to Israel. That is why I believe it was when Jesus died and you are correct it is under the fifth seal of which we are today as I understand the scripture.
If these white robes came from the blood of the Lamb and Jesus died under the fifth seal then that is the only way those souls under the altar could receive their white robes.

I don't place us in Heaven but think we are living under the fifth seal today for under the sixth seal the sun will turn dark and the moon to blood and the stars will fall from heaven and that has not happened yet. (I believe we receive our white robes when we are born again and made alive in Christ and receive His blood applied to our soul), but they couldn't because it had not been shed when they died.

I believe that Book written within and sealed on the back side with seven seals is life from the beginning when God gave man life to the end when He will destroy this earth and the devil, those who worketh abomination and those who maketh a lie and Heaven speaks and says "it is finished'.

 

[Allan]

Ok, I see what your saying, but if I may -

IF we are under the fifth seal and it was not till then Christ died (Rev 6:9-11) and gave robes, Who then are those in Ch 4 and most specifically in Ch 5.

CH 4 speaks of the 24 elders - Now elders in the OT were the oldest or matured adult but the NT is a position concering the Church.

But what I was currious about was Ch 5 and specifically verse 9 where it states:

"...Thou art worthy to take the book and to open the seals thereof: for Thou was slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kndred and togue, and people, and nation"

What is of interest here to me is that these are obviously believers IN Heaven WITNESSING Jesus take the Book with SEALS. How do we know they were believers? Specifically their statement of praise to the One slain that HAS redeemed them to God by His BLOOD. And there were more than the 24 Elders in attendence since the latter part of this same verse states out of every... (there are obviouse differing views on the 24 - Israel 12/church 12 or 24 representing all of the church ect...) but I'm speaking of what we actually see the verse saying. And that bing they are there and SEEING Him take the Book also saw Him open the seals since they were right there when it happened.

Then we see again in Ch 7 one the Elders it speaks of in Ch 4.

What think ye, my friend??

 

[Brother Bob]

First I do not believe that Rev: is in sequence but is like a sermon of which we move from one subject to another. Having said that it does seem that Rev: 4 through 10 are in sequence and I have always believed it took the blood to open the book and loose the seals even though the book tells us of thing which were, are and that which is to come, but it took Jesus to open it. I believe all the seals have been opened but we are living under the fifth seal with two yet to come but believe we are getting close to them.
The Elders to me as you read in Ch 4 praises Him for the creation and not the shedding of blood so it makes me think they were there along with the four beasts long before Christ came. I do wonder who the Elders are and have preached many times I would love to see them but there are those who went to Heaven before the coming of Christ and when He came and opened the book by the shedding of His blood then they received the promise God had made them. There were at least two who went both body and soul and could be more for the Bible never contained all that has happened since creation. When you get to Ch 12 you read of the woman who brought forth the man Child and I believe that Rev: is backing up again and explaining the birth of the Grace Church and birth of Jesus.
My belief on the opening of the seals does not mean that is when these things take place but is revealing to us time from creation to the end.
I think where there are so many different beliefs on what will take place in the resurrection is because men do read Rev: as if it takes place step by step and tries to find worldly events to fill in the happenings.
When Jesus shed His blood and arose from the grave "many of the bodies of the saints arose with Him and went into that Holy City and many were seen of many, so yes, there are people in Heaven, both soul and body who are not under the altar of God but are praising Him.
I guess in order to see as I do you would also have to accept that when it says "Jesus was the firstfruits of them that slept that arose you would have to believe He was the First resurrection along with many of the bodies of the saints".
I do not believe in a 1000 year reign yet to come but believe as scripture says that a 1000 years is as yesterday or without measure of time and to be frank, I believe it was when the blood was shed also.
Man, you have caused me to get deeper than I really wanted to because I know I am in the minority on here in believing the 1000 years is over but indeed, I am not alone in this belief for there are many who believe the same just they all believe at different times.
I tried to find a time when satan was bound and the only thing that has or will bind satan including in your life and mine is "the fear of God". When Jesus died and the earth shook and turned dark and the veil rent from top to bottom and the very ones who peirced Him in the side confessed that He was the Christ. Well, in the end of time it will be the same, the earth turn dark, earth quakes and confessions but then He will shake the Heavens also.

Hope I have made clear what I believe for I think when the Lord comes again it will be a quick work He will do. He will redeem His believers from the earth and then pass judgement on the earth by pouring out the seven vials of the wrath of God.
11: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created

 

[Allan]

LOL, I enjoy not only debates but honest chats and listening to each other too.

It is good sometimes to just ask simple questions to hear anthers view to know whether they square up or if you are oblong. We can only grasp this through listening and then reviewing. Iron sharpens Iron as one man sharpens another.

I may not agree with you on on Rev. specifically but we both hold to that blessed resurrection unto life and the bodily comng of our Lord and Saviour the rest is only a side issue that is a LOOOOOONG debate. :thumbsup: :laugh:


I only wanted to hear you view, which is why I asked what you thoughts. And questions some points only clarify and accentuate the discussion.

Peace and Love is your forever in Christ
so "rest" in this. - Allan V.

 

[Brother Bob]

I have enjoyed it Allan;
I like talking with those who show respect even I probably knew you did not agree with me to start with but at least we did debate civil.

Who really knows all about Rev:, It would of been something if we had of gotten into what each seal represents. peace,

 

[Brother Bob]

No one has ever answered why it is written in Rev: "I saw the souls of them". Why did it not just say "I saw souls that were beheaded"?

The way it is written John saw a part of a whole and if it was just the souls then no one could see them anyway when it took place.

 

[Allan]

Bob it does say just that

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

KJV

Who says the soul can't be seen. God back to Saul and the medium who called forth Samuel. He saw Samuel and he had no body. Or look a Moses on Mount Transfiguration where not only Jesus saw him but the disciples did to. Elijah however was still alive so he doesn't count - but that could be debated.

 

[Brother Bob]

Hard to argue with that Allan

 

[Allan]

Being as you usually post the scripture, I thought maybe I was seeing things with that question. :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

Only thing is I have stood over many of people who died and have yet to see the first soul leave the body.

 

[Allan]

No one saw Samuels soul leave either.

I think it is that God allows them to be seen. Otherwise, like with Halloween up and coming people will go looking more after spirits than God.

I think that God allowed them to be seen is what is of Note.

 

[Brother Bob]

I agree with that but in the norm that are unseen don't you agree?